Chin Ups (Eccentric, Concentric) Question

[soccergod]

hello,

Someone on this forum posted that when doing lat pull downs or anything like that when you pull it down do it FAST, but then going back up do it as SLOW as possible for max hypertropy.

So i did this today, and WOWOWOW, i felt it so much, it is the best thing i have probably ever done lol.

Anyways, is this a good thing to do? Should I do it every time I do some sort of pull up or pull down?

Are there any other things like this for other excercises?

Thanks

 

[bipennate]

You can do this with any exercise: fast, controlled concentric (the "lift" portion), and slower, controlled eccentric (the "lowering" portion). Do a search online for "exercise tempos" to read more.

 

[Streamline]

The eccentric phase should be slower regardless of goals - endurance, strengh, power, hypertrophy

 

[goergen1]

You can do this with any exercise: fast, controlled concentric (the "lift" portion), and slower, controlled eccentric (the "lowering" portion). Do a search online for "exercise tempos" to read more.

I agree. You will find a lot of great information.

The eccentric phase should be slower regardless of goals - endurance, strengh, power, hypertrophy

This is not always true. It may be for hypertrophy. For strength and endurance it is only true sometimes. For power it is definitely not true.

One of the goals of power training is to learn to control an explosive eccentric muscle action (for sports where changing direction is key, or stopping) and follow it up with fast concentric acceleration. Deceleration is one of the weakest points for most athletes and is also the most important. Most people do not understand that power training is for more than to increase concentric force production.

The best athletes have the best deceleration / explosive eccentric, abilities.

Most injuries in occur during the eccentric phase than anywhere else. (weightlifting included, many times when you are changing direction) So training to be able to handle faster eccentric muscle action is important.

 

[soccergod]

thanks everyone.

Ok a couple of questions:

Eccentric and Concentric, can someone give examples, like on squat when I go down, whats that? Stuff like that.

So depending on my goals i should do this? I lift at different schemes every time, i have 4x8, 3x10, and 5x5. So like for example, in one of the hypertrophy days i could do this and the other one not. Then on 5x5 i should do the excercise as Quick as possible?

anyways going to go read up on tempos.
Thanks

 

[laner]

Basically anything where the muscle is contracting is concentric and anything extending is exentric like in a bicep curl the upward phase is concentric on the bicep while eccentric on the tricep and vice versa.

 

[Streamline]

This is not always true. It may be for hypertrophy. For strength and endurance it is only true sometimes. For power it is definitely not true.

One of the goals of power training is to learn to control an explosive eccentric muscle action (for sports where changing direction is key, or stopping) and follow it up with fast concentric acceleration.

That is about the complete opposite of what you should've said. For power training the Concentric phase is very fast (<1 second) and that the Eccentric phase is slow and controlled.

One of the goals of power training is to learn to control an explosive eccentric muscle action (for sports where changing direction is key, or stopping) and follow it up with fast concentric acceleration.

The point of a fast concentric is so that you can apply these contractions on the sport field, yes, but you're telling us to do the Eccentric phase slow....Also, the ability to change direction fast is a result of good agility, not power. When you watch power lifters in the olympics are they doing the clean and jerk or snatch as slow as they can? No, they do it extremely quick, so, obviously, it only makes sense that they train the same way.

Most injuries in occur during the eccentric phase than anywhere else. (weightlifting included, many times when you are changing direction) So training to be able to handle faster eccentric muscle action is important.

Most injuries occur around the transition phase (i made this term up) between the eccentric and concentric phases of a lift and is the result of the person training with eccentric phase to fast and not controlled.

 

[goergen1]

That is about the complete opposite of what you should've said. For power training the Concentric phase is very fast (<1 second) and that the Eccentric phase is slow and controlled.

What I said was accurate. Training a faster eccentric phase is very important in power training. I am not sure what you are implying here. But I am not recommending any of the muscle actions to be slow.

The point of a fast concentric is so that you can apply these contractions on the sport field, yes, but you're telling us to do the Eccentric phase slow

Can you read? I am not telling anyone to do the eccentric phase slow. You are saying that the eccentric phase should be slow during power training. You said that in the quote I posted at the top.

Also, the ability to change direction fast is a result of good agility, not power.

Do you even know what power is? Do you know what agility is? It is impossible to be agile without explosive power. Specifically, the ability to utilize an explosive eccentric muscle action.

When you watch power lifters in the olympics are they doing the clean and jerk or snatch as slow as they can? No, they do it extremely quick, so, obviously, it only makes sense that they train the same way.

Thus far you are the only one saying that any part of a lift with the goal of power should be done slow.

Most injuries occur around the transition phase (i made this term up) between the eccentric and concentric phases

Dude, that is what I said. Only I used the term changing direction.

and is the result of the person training with eccentric phase to fast and not controlled

Fast and not in control are not the same thing. You can have an explosive eccentric muscle action that is also under control. Which was pretty much the entire point of my last post. Power training is not only training an explosive concentric muscle action but also training an explosive eccentric muscle action with the goal being the shortest amortization phase possible.

Streamline - you really need to read more carefully before posting a response.

 

[Streamline]

What I said was accurate. Training a faster eccentric phase is very important in power training. I am not sure what you are implying here. But I am not recommending any of the muscle actions to be slow.

So what you're saying is if i want to power train my bench press for example, my eccentric and concentric phase should be fast? That is just so ridiculous and inaccurate. Do you even know anything about lifting ratios? Give me a lifting ratio specifically for power training. You probably will, but only after you google it after reading this.

Can you read? I am not telling anyone to do the eccentric phase slow. You are saying that the eccentric phase should be slow during power training. You said that in the quote I posted at the top.

Typo on my part.

Do you even know what power is? Do you know what agility is? It is impossible to be agile without explosive power. Specifically, the ability to utilize an explosive eccentric muscle action.

Ok, let's look at this, i'm gonna use football as an example since most of us can relate to that. In any football code (rugby union, rugby league, Australian Football, American Football and even soccer) you'll see alot of side stepping (particularly in Rugby League and Rugby Union). When i player sidesteps to the left the right leg first suddenly contracts as it lifts off the ground then the step is completed when the right leg contracts, putting your body in the opposite direction. The concentric phase of any lift is when the muscle is contracting. Notice the link?

Thus far you are the only one saying that any part of a lift with the goal of power should be done slow.

Actually, no i'm not i'll quote bipennate.

here You can do this with any exercise: fast, controlled concentric (the "lift" portion), and slower, controlled eccentric (the "lowering" portion). Do a search online for "exercise tempos" to read more.

In fact, you're the only one saying to do both phases fast. Can you read?

Dude, that is what I said. Only I used the term changing direction.

I was actually backing you up on this point. I should have pointed that out.

Fast and not in control are not the same thing. You can have an explosive eccentric muscle action that is also under control. Which was pretty much the entire point of my last post. Power training is not only training an explosive concentric muscle action but also training an explosive eccentric muscle action with the goal being the shortest amortization phase possible.

Yes, you're right, fast and not in control are not the same thing. A fast lift can be controlled and actually very important. Power training is about a fast concentric phase and a slower eccentric phase. However, the eccentric phase should not be near as fast as the concentric phase.

Streamline - you really need to read more carefully before posting a response.

So now you're gonna try and talk down to me? You make me laugh, son.

 

[bipennate]

Actually, no i'm not i'll quote bipennate.

You're misquoting me here, Streamline: I was responding specifically to the OP. The eccentric phase doesn't need to be slower than the concentric phase, depending on the purpose of the training. In power techniques in Olympic Weightlifting (what you incorrectly referred to as "Olympic Powerlifting"), there is no eccentric phase.

goergen is entirely correct with what he wrote in his previous posts.

Yes, you're right, fast and not in control are not the same thing. A fast lift can be controlled and actually very important. Power training is about a fast concentric phase and a slower eccentric phase. However, the eccentric phase should not be near as fast as the concentric phase.

Again, this is not true: specifically for training power, you want a short, faster eccentric period to produce a loading of stored elastic energy in the contractile components of the muscle to produce greater force, or power. This is seen directly during the stretch shortening cycle during plyometric training.

Slow eccentrics in this case would cause a reduction of stored elastic potential energy through dissipation (2nd law of thermodynamics), reducing the total power capable of being produced. This is a good idea when training for strength because you want to apply the most stress on the muscle itself, causing it to do the work, but this is not a good method when specifically trying to train to increase power expression.

 

[goergen1]

Actually -

Actually, no i'm not i'll quote bipennate.
Quote:

here You can do this with any exercise: fast, controlled concentric (the "lift" portion), and slower, controlled eccentric (the "lowering" portion). Do a search online for "exercise tempos" to read more.

bipennate was not referring to power training.

So what you're saying is if i want to power train my bench press for example, my eccentric and concentric phase should be fast?

Yes, that is what I am saying. It is backed up by close to 100 years of research and practical experience.

I will use your side stepping athlete example.

When i player sidesteps to the left the right leg first suddenly contracts as it lifts off the ground then the step is completed when the right leg contracts

When an athlete plants his foot in order to change direction he stops his momentum because of an explosive eccentric muscle action. This will increase the motor recruitment (and can also take advantage of the stretch reflex) for the subsequent concentric muscle action. Making the change of direction faster.

If the athlete is unable to decelerate, he will not make his change of direction, or it will be too slow. Neither of witch is a good thing.

Is training to be better at deceleration really that unbelievable?

There are no athletic movements that do not take advantage of explosive eccentric muscle action in order to better change direction. Even when an athlete starts from a stopped position he uses eccentric loading in order to make his start faster.

Again, this is something that has been shown through research over the past 50 years at least.

Power training is about a fast concentric phase and a slower eccentric phase. However, the eccentric phase should not be near as fast as the concentric phase.

Power training is more about learning to use an explosive eccentric muscle action.

bipennate - You beat me to it dude. Once again Thanks.

there is no eccentric phase.

Actually, eccentric muscle action is taken advantage of during the double knee bend as well as a huge eccentric phase when catching in the full squat. (might I add for streamlines benefit that this is a very fast eccentric phase as well)

The drive for the jerk is also benefited by an eccentric muscle action.

(Sry, not to be picky or anything)

I have had a fun couple of days with all of this great discussion.

 

[bipennate]

Now i have two people arguing against me, both of whom are wrong so i'm just gonna leave it at that instead of quoting and requoting because obviously nothing gets through.

Arguing? I was arguing? I was trying to point out something that you seem to have misunderstood. Apparently, I seem to not know what I'm talking about.

Now, I would never want to be accused of being so dense that "nothing gets through," so by all means, please enlighten me. I'm always interested in learning new things, so if I've given incorrect information or have an improper understanding of biomechanics and proper weight training technique, please let me know. I look forward to learning from you...

 

[Streamline]

When an athlete plants his foot in order to change direction he stops his momentum because of an explosive eccentric muscle action. This will increase the motor recruitment (and can also take advantage of the stretch reflex) for the subsequent concentric muscle action. Making the change of direction faster.

If the athlete is unable to decelerate, he will not make his change of direction, or it will be too slow. Neither of witch is a good thing.

Is training to be better at deceleration really that unbelievable?

There are no athletic movements that do not take advantage of explosive eccentric muscle action in order to better change direction. Even when an athlete starts from a stopped position he uses eccentric loading in order to make his start faster.

Again, this is something that has been shown through research over the past 50 years at least.

After their foot is planted into the ground, the actual lifting of their foot off the ground is all concentric. It's the same thing with this slowing down or declaration, as you put it.

We've gone a little off topic from the original poster, but that's ok. Seriously though read about lifting tempos (it will take about 5 minutes). It's pretty simple to understand and important to maximize your goals.

I have had a fun couple of days with all of this great discussion.

Me too, there is absolutely no convincing you or me of our arguments.

 

[bipennate]

Actually, eccentric muscle action is taken advantage of during the double knee bend as well as a huge eccentric phase when catching in the full squat. (might I add for streamlines benefit that this is a very fast eccentric phase as well)

The drive for the jerk is also benefited by an eccentric muscle action.

(Sry, not to be picky or anything)

I have had a fun couple of days with all of this great discussion.

Good point about the double knee bend...you're right about the other positions as well, but i was actually referring to power techniques, such as a power snatch or power clean to avoid confusion in my example...yours is probably better, because it directly shows the effectiveness of fast eccentrics for sport-specific movement.

 

[goergen1]

Me too, there is absolutely no convincing you or me of our arguments.

I can assure you that one day you will see where we are coming from.

 

[Streamline]

I can assure you that one day you will see where we are coming from.

Likewise