is it possible to bulk AND tone my abs simultaneously?

[Wrangell]

I did a search on T-Nation for this as I'm about to go to the Doctors and don't have the time to put it down in words (and I'm lazy)

Testosterone Nation - BONUS ARTICLE: Two-Day Workout

And also, why would you not be talking about EPOC after you challenged my post saying that lengthly cardio isn't the best way to lose fat while retaining muscle? EPOC is very relevant

I never said lengthy cardio " is the best way to lose fat ".

I simply was questioning / wondering about the assumption or claim being made that a " slow " 45 minute run increases the risk of muscle loss over that of a 30 minute session of HIIT.

 

[Wrangell]

to put it simply moderate to high ss-cardio also uses EPOC and seing as you are at a high hr for longer therefore you will burn more cals during and after

Perhaps, but based on what I've read, it is HIIT that is optimal for EPOC for the average gym rat. So, apples to apples, comparing the burning of 300 calories actually doing ss-cardio compared to burning 300 calories actually doing HIIT, HIIT will yield the greater comparative EPOC impact. That is the crux of the findings in the Tremblay / Laval study.

i am not saying HIIT is not good its just overhyped and the more conditioned you become the less of an effect it has on you.

HIIT is " hyped " because it is among the most ' optimal ' ways to lose fat by means of cardio exercise.

 

[Chillen]

The bottom line is the law of energy balance, whether created negatively through exercise and diet or the combination. We shouldnt get overly complicated for the young man. Create a deficit and tip the scale to the negative side, and I believe staying at the UPPER end of the deficit range. And, the bottom line is if your in deficit it is most difficult (not impossible) to grow tissue in the first place. I think its logical to just eat at your MT line (since the topic is tissue loss and gain--apposing energy forces), and let exercise cause the reduction, or do a zig-zag diet in a calculated set adverting the energy equation during the week (for example, 2 moderate energy surpluses, and 5 defict, or a combination like this). The energy balance is the bottom line here next to the nutirent ratios. I beleive one MUST provide a energy reason to grow and an energy reason to lose. The bottom line is diet and everythig follows it, this must be in order first, in order to allow stimulous one way or the other.

 

[matt182]

So, you're saying that if this guy runs " for about 45 min to an hour at a slow pace " this " lengthly cardio will limit muscle gain or worse still cause muscle atrophy ".That 45 minute ' slow ' run may be fuelled by as much as 60% fat and only 40% glycogen, whereas the HIIT might be fulled by as much as 95% glycogen and 5% fat during work intervals and closer to 75 % +/- glycogen during recovery intervals.

Assuming your glycogen stores are topped up in both cases, are you saying if you run at a slow pace for 45 minutes and burn 300 calories and do 30 minutes of HIIT and burn 300 calories, that there is a greater risk your body will break down protein ( i.e amino acids / muscle tissue ) to create glycogen for energy during the 45 run ?

Why is that ? What is it about a slow 45 minute run that greatly increases the liklihood protein will be synthesized to glycogen for energy vs HIIT ?

its been fun reading this thread

I just wanted to have my input and say firstly, protein doesnt get synthesized to glycogen it gets broken down to amino acids for direct use or is converted to GLUCOSE. Why would the body want to store it when it needs it for energy huh.

Someone mentioned the hormone cortisol, this hormone promotes both fatty acid and protein utilisation, but is only produced after prolonged periods. adrenaline is before and promotes muscle glucose and fatty acids.

My oponion is that HIIT is better.

 

[Wrangell]

its been fun reading this thread

I just wanted to have my input and say firstly, protein doesnt get synthesized to glycogen it gets broken down to amino acids for direct use or is converted to GLUCOSE. Why would the body want to store it when it needs it for energy huh.

Correct. Poor wording on my part.

I got hung up on the discussion of ' stored ' energy as it pertains to cardio intensity - I interchanged glucose with glycogen ( it's not the first time ) . Glucose is simply ' stored ' in the muscles and liver as glycogen. And, it's the amino acids in your blood and / or muscle proteins that get converted to glucose to be used by your muscles as fuel.

Someone mentioned the hormone cortisol, this hormone promotes both fatty acid and protein utilisation, but is only produced after prolonged periods. adrenaline is before and promotes muscle glucose and fatty acids.

My opnion is that HIIT is better.

I have no problem with HIIT as an ' optimal ' cardio method of fat loss - I agree with you , for fat loss, it is better than most other options.

However, the argument put forward was that HIIT results in less of a cortisol reponse than say a longer and slower form of cardio training - in our case 30 minutes of HIIT vs a ' slow ' 45 minute run.

This is the view that was put forward, even though, HIIT is a very intense and stressful form of exercise. And, given that cortisol is a catablic hormone triggered by stress - i.e intense exercise - one would think the cortisol repsonse would be ( at the very least ) pretty much the same between the 2 cardio protocols.

So, even though we all concede cortisol " promotes protein utilisation " - any idea why HIIT isn't seen as promoting protein utilisation to the same extent that slow steady cardio is said to promote ?

Welcome your thoughts.

 

[sexanoe]

ya im still here, just a bit confused

 

[matt182]

Well i like hiit better because it burns more calories...

I think with the cortisol issue is that the two diff forms of running are quite different. I think the key word is duration, and you cant run for constant long enough periods with hiit (its pretty much impossible) to incurr the same signal transductions & mechanisms in the body.

Im not sure what sexanoe is wanting to know but im sure you can clear it for him/her

 

[Wrangell]

ya im still here, just a bit confused

That makes 2 of us.

 

[buzz]

Perhaps, but based on what I've read, it is HIIT that is optimal for EPOC for the average gym rat. So, apples to apples, comparing the burning of 300 calories actually doing ss-cardio compared to burning 300 calories actually doing HIIT, HIIT will yield the greater comparative EPOC impact. That is the crux of the findings in the Tremblay / Laval study.



HIIT is " hyped " because it is among the most ' optimal ' ways to lose fat by means of cardio exercise.

as i have said before tabata and tremblay based there findings on HIIT versus low ss-cardio.
tabata got athletes to cycle at 70% v02 max while the HIIT athletes did 170% v02 max,so obviously the findings are going to favour the HIIT.

but if he had used 80% ss-cardio which goes into the anearobic threshold, and you can still maintain for long periods, and it uses EPOC then you would be maintaning your higher HR for longer therfore getting better cals burned during exercise,and after due to EPOC.

BTW HIIT is hyped because people dont like doing long slow cardio and because the studies are missinforming.

 

[buzz]

Your Maximum Fat Burning Zone

Maximum fat burning rate occurs during moderate intensity at about 60 - 65% VO2max which corresponds to about 75% max heart rate for most people (this assumes an aerobically trained individual).1 The absolute burn rate is size dependent, but will typically fall into the range of about 0.5 - 0.8 grams of fat per minute with about equal contributions from peripheral and intramuscular sources. Total caloric expenditure for moderate intensity exercise again is size dependent (larger people expend more calories because they are moving larger masses and working larger muscles) and falls in the range of about 8 - 15 calories per minutes with fat contributing on the order of about 50 - 70% of the total caloric expenditure. With longer durations, this amount tends to the higher value, mainly due to intramuscular glycogen depletion that occurs at this level of intensity. Most trained individuals can sustain this rate of expenditure for 1.5 - 3 hours, at least, but because of the level of carb burning at this intensity, the duration will be limited by total carb stores in the body.

As intensity is further increased (to 85% VO2max), oxygen supply begins to become limiting. This causes a further shift to greater carb burning with breakdown of the muscle's intramuscular store of carb in the form of glycogen1.21,22,23 Similar to fat burning, as intensity is increased, fuel source shifts to a greater reliance on intramuscular carb stores in the form of glycogen. If the level of intensity is held below the lactic acid threshold (which varies from the high 60's% of VO2max to the 80's%), the activity can be sustained for about 45 - 60 minutes until glycogen stores are exhausted necessitating a fall back to an intensity level where fat can supply the majority of energy needs.

 

[buzz]

Burn Fat For 3 Hours After Exercising?

Of more particular relevance however, to an already physically active group of individuals is the immediate post-exercise period. Studies have revealed that following aerobic exercise, there is a period of excess oxygen consumption relative to a similar period of time following rest.14 In other words, after an aerobic session, more oxygen is consumed during rest than would be if the exercise had not occurred.

Greater oxygen consumption implies that something is being burned, either fat or carb. In fact, most studies suggest that fat burning is providing the bulk of the excess oxygen consumption.12,14,15 In addition, the magnitude of the excess consumption is directly related to exercise intensity and duration.3,8,12,16-18 Thus, the higher the exercise intensity, the greater the degree of increased fat burning in the post exercise period which can extend for well over three hours following exercise.

The presumed mechanism for this effect is directly related to the fuel utilization during the exercise period. Recall that with increasing intensity from moderate to high, the percentage of energy supplied by fat burning declines (although the absolute decline is slower to trail off), while carb burning continues to increase. Also, carb sources in the body are quite limited. Depending on the exercise, one session can significantly reduce carb stores (glycogen) in the specific working muscles. Even with just rest, carb stores can be exhausted in 2 - 3 days if not replenished by food intake. Thus, following an exercise session that has depleted the muscle's glycogen content, the body will attempt to replenish these stores.

This means that carb uptake by the muscle will go to make glycogen, rather than burned for energy needs. However, even under resting conditions, the muscle still has basal metabolic energy requirements. To meet these requirements, the muscle will burn fat for fuel and this is the basis for increased fat burning in the post exercise period, since the conversion of carbs to glycogen in muscle will require some energy itself.
TABATA USED THIS VERSUS HIIT
Clearly, following low intensity exercise, the muscle has little to do since neither intramuscular carb or fat stores have been significantly impacted. In addition, at low intensity, energy can be supplied by peripheral fat stores slowly releasing fat into the bloodstream. These fat stores are the most flexible since they can grow and contract as needed, but the rate of mobilization (or release) of fat from peripheral fat stores is limited.10 However, once moderate intensity is initiated, the situation changes dramatically.

Under moderate intensities, intramuscular fat stores must be tapped to support the level of energy generation, since the fat contribution from peripheral fat stores has reached its limit. In essence, moderate intensity can be viewed as the point where intramuscular fuel stores begin to be utilized. Carb burning will also increase linearly with intensity and the breakdown of intramuscular glycogen stores become significant during upper levels of moderate intensity.
WHEN HE SHOULD HAVE USED THIS
Thus, following moderate intensity exercise, the two major intramuscular energy stores of fat (in the form of intramuscular triglyceride) and carb (in the form of glycogen) need to be replaced. Since carbs are limiting as discussed above, carbs, in the form of blood sugar, are diverted exclusively for glycogen replacement. Fat uptake is also increased and fuels energy needs as well as intramuscular triglyceride replacement. Endurance athletes develop increased intramuscular triglycerides as a part of training.9,11

This fat, both for energy needs as well as intramuscular triglyceride replacement, is derived from fat circulating fat in the bloodstream and comes from peripheral fat stores. Given that depletion of peripheral fat stores is limited in their rate of release of fat (the speed at which they can be depleted) continuing peripheral fat store depletion following exercise offers an attractive method to enhance bodyfat management. Desirable weight loss and bodyfat loss implies depletion of peripheral body fat stores.

The Intensity Of Exercise And How It Will Affect You

In summary, the intensity of exercise, regardless of the amount of fat burned during the exercise directly influences the amount of fat burned in the post exercise period. Since this fat is derived from peripheral fat stores, the higher the intensity and longer the duration that can be sustained, the greater the post-exercise fat burn that can be achieved. In essence, the combination of intensity and duration generate a carb and fat depleted state in the working muscle that shifts fuel metabolism towards fat burning to allow the muscle to return to its baseline levels of glycogen and intramuscular fat stores, ready for another round of exercise.
HIGHER INTENSITY FOR LONGER =MORE FATLOSS

 

[Wrangell]

as i have said before tabata and tremblay based there findings on HIIT versus low ss-cardio.

Correct

tabata got athletes to cycle at 70% v02 max while the HIIT athletes did 170% v02 max,so obviously the findings are going to favour the HIIT.

Sorry, that's fallacious reasoning.

but if he had used 80% ss-cardio which goes into the anearobic threshold, and you can still maintain for long periods, and it uses EPOC then you would be maintaning your higher HR for longer therfore getting better cals burned during exercise,and after due to EPOC.

OK, so ' 80% Vox2 vs 170% v02 max ' instead of ' 70% Vox2 vs 170% v02 max ' ...it might yield some difference in result ...though I suspect not much.

BTW HIIT is hyped because people dont like doing long slow cardio and because the studies are missinforming.

Too funny ! If anything, from a comfort level and all other things being equal, people would prefer slow cardio over HIIT IMO.

I suspect few people embrace HIIT because they actually " like it ", but it's more likely they embrace HIIT because it is one the most " optimal " means of fat loss ( and fitness ) when doing cardio.

 

[Wrangell]

Your Maximum Fat Burning Zone

Maximum fat burning rate occurs during moderate intensity at about 60 - 65% VO2max which corresponds to about 75% max heart rate for most people (this assumes an aerobically trained individual).1 The absolute burn rate is size dependent, but will typically fall into the range of about 0.5 - 0.8 grams of fat per minute with about equal contributions from peripheral and intramuscular sources. Total caloric expenditure for moderate intensity exercise again is size dependent (larger people expend more calories because they are moving larger masses and working larger muscles) and falls in the range of about 8 - 15 calories per minutes with fat contributing on the order of about 50 - 70% of the total caloric expenditure. With longer durations, this amount tends to the higher value, mainly due to intramuscular glycogen depletion that occurs at this level of intensity. Most trained individuals can sustain this rate of expenditure for 1.5 - 3 hours, at least, but because of the level of carb burning at this intensity, the duration will be limited by total carb stores in the body.

As intensity is further increased (to 85% VO2max), oxygen supply begins to become limiting. This causes a further shift to greater carb burning with breakdown of the muscle's intramuscular store of carb in the form of glycogen1.21,22,23 Similar to fat burning, as intensity is increased, fuel source shifts to a greater reliance on intramuscular carb stores in the form of glycogen. If the level of intensity is held below the lactic acid threshold (which varies from the high 60's% of VO2max to the 80's%), the activity can be sustained for about 45 - 60 minutes until glycogen stores are exhausted necessitating a fall back to an intensity level where fat can supply the majority of energy needs.

It's rather obvious you pasted this text ( above ) in from a source somewhere on the internet.

Please paste in the link that you got this text from.

 

[Wrangell]

Burn Fat For 3 Hours After Exercising?

Of more particular relevance however, to an already physically active group of individuals is the immediate post-exercise period. Studies have revealed that following aerobic exercise, there is a period of excess oxygen consumption relative to a similar period of time following rest. 14 In other words, after an aerobic session, more oxygen is consumed during rest than would be if the exercise had not occurred.

Greater oxygen consumption implies that something is being burned, either fat or carb. In fact, most studies suggest that fat burning is providing the bulk of the excess oxygen consumption. 12,14,15 In addition, the magnitude of the excess consumption is directly related to exercise intensity and duration. 3,8,12,16-18 Thus, the higher the exercise intensity, the greater the degree of increased fat burning in the post exercise period which can extend for well over three hours following exercise.

The presumed mechanism for this effect is directly related to the fuel utilization during the exercise period. Recall that with increasing intensity from moderate to high, the percentage of energy supplied by fat burning declines (although the absolute decline is slower to trail off), while carb burning continues to increase. Also, carb sources in the body are quite limited. Depending on the exercise, one session can significantly reduce carb stores (glycogen) in the specific working muscles. Even with just rest, carb stores can be exhausted in 2 - 3 days if not replenished by food intake. Thus, following an exercise session that has depleted the muscle's glycogen content, the body will attempt to replenish these stores.

This means that carb uptake by the muscle will go to make glycogen, rather than burned for energy needs. However, even under resting conditions, the muscle still has basal metabolic energy requirements. To meet these requirements, the muscle will burn fat for fuel and this is the basis for increased fat burning in the post exercise period, since the conversion of carbs to glycogen in muscle will require some energy itself.
TABATA USED THIS VERSUS HIIT
Clearly, following low intensity exercise, the muscle has little to do since neither intramuscular carb or fat stores have been significantly impacted. In addition, at low intensity, energy can be supplied by peripheral fat stores slowly releasing fat into the bloodstream. These fat stores are the most flexible since they can grow and contract as needed, but the rate of mobilization (or release) of fat from peripheral fat stores is limited. 10 However, once moderate intensity is initiated, the situation changes dramatically.

Under moderate intensities, intramuscular fat stores must be tapped to support the level of energy generation, since the fat contribution from peripheral fat stores has reached its limit. In essence, moderate intensity can be viewed as the point where intramuscular fuel stores begin to be utilized. Carb burning will also increase linearly with intensity and the breakdown of intramuscular glycogen stores become significant during upper levels of moderate intensity.
WHEN HE SHOULD HAVE USED THIS
Thus, following moderate intensity exercise, the two major intramuscular energy stores of fat (in the form of intramuscular triglyceride) and carb (in the form of glycogen) need to be replaced. Since carbs are limiting as discussed above, carbs, in the form of blood sugar, are diverted exclusively for glycogen replacement. Fat uptake is also increased and fuels energy needs as well as intramuscular triglyceride replacement. Endurance athletes develop increased intramuscular triglycerides as a part of training. 9,11

This fat, both for energy needs as well as intramuscular triglyceride replacement, is derived from fat circulating fat in the bloodstream and comes from peripheral fat stores. Given that depletion of peripheral fat stores is limited in their rate of release of fat (the speed at which they can be depleted) continuing peripheral fat store depletion following exercise offers an attractive method to enhance bodyfat management. Desirable weight loss and bodyfat loss implies depletion of peripheral body fat stores.

The Intensity Of Exercise And How It Will Affect You

In summary, the intensity of exercise, regardless of the amount of fat burned during the exercise directly influences the amount of fat burned in the post exercise period. Since this fat is derived from peripheral fat stores, the higher the intensity and longer the duration that can be sustained, the greater the post-exercise fat burn that can be achieved. In essence, the combination of intensity and duration generate a carb and fat depleted state in the working muscle that shifts fuel metabolism towards fat burning to allow the muscle to return to its baseline levels of glycogen and intramuscular fat stores, ready for another round of exercise.
HIGHER INTENSITY FOR LONGER =MORE FATLOSS

Tell me, what do the ' bolded numbers ' above refer to ?

Show some integrity when you post someone else's thoughts....at least provide the source.

Again, please paste in the link that you got this text ( above ) from.

BTW - Tabata examined intervals and ss cardio with respect to the effects on V02max and anaerobic capacity. The Tabata study did not examine the relationship betwen ss cardio, intervals and ' fat loss ' - that was focus of the Tremblay study

 

[Chillen]

This debate is amusing, educational. But, just DOING IT will get the job done. (LOL).

 

[buzz]

i did not intend to use someone elses thoughts as my own,but normaly when articles are posted they are not read,so i just posted what i thought was relavant to my argument.
Bodybuilding.com - Michael Kurilla - Understanding The Science Behind Interval Training: Part 1.
this is the article its about interval training.
the bolde parts are studies.

 

[buzz]

OK, so ' 80% Vox2 vs 170% v02 max ' instead of ' 70% Vox2 vs 170% v02 max ' ...it might yield some difference in result ...though I suspect not much.

how can you say this,the point of HIIT is to get into the anearobic area,so if your at 80% which is the anearobic area,and you stay in that for 45mins surely thats better than staying in it for short bursts.

 

[michaelwoodcock]

many professionals warn against training abs for both, you must train your abs for endurance, which means slow movements, with many repetitions.
They are a HUGE muscle group and, i am no expert, but they say, fast twitch muscle fibers use glycogen, to produce motion, while, slow twitch, use more oxygen, and, do not deplete your energy as fast

 

[Wrangell]

i did not intend to use someone elses thoughts as my own,but normaly when articles are posted they are not read,so i just posted what i thought was relavant to my argument.
Bodybuilding.com - Michael Kurilla - Understanding The Science Behind Interval Training: Part 1.
this is the article its about interval training.
the bolde parts are studies.

Actually, the article re-affirms the advantages of HIIT over ss cardio and the irrelevance of the ' Fat Burning Zone ' in optimizing fat loss IMO.........

" the intensity of exercise, regardless of the amount of fat burned DURING the exercise directly influences the amount of fat burned "​

Thanks for supplying info supporting my argument.

 

[buzz]

or you could use this
In summary, the intensity of exercise, regardless of the amount of fat burned during the exercise directly influences the amount of fat burned in the post exercise period. Since this fat is derived from peripheral fat stores, the higher the intensity and longer the duration that can be sustained, the greater the post-exercise fat burn that can be achieved.

which was my point all along.
i am not or ever have said that HIIT is not usefull,but ss-cardio at a higher intensity is better for fatloss.

and as i stated the HIIT v ss-cardio HIIT will win everytime because its low ss-cardio, but up the tempo of the ss-cardio and i doubt HIIT would compare fatloss-wise for the reasons stated above.