Will adding 20 minutes of HIIT to weight slow my growth?

after doing an intense weights session if you then do a HIIT session yes you are risking muscle loss,however if you do moderate cardio 60% to 70%mhr there is less risk of muscle loss as you are in this zone,
The Energy Efficient or Recovery Zone - 60% to 70%
Training within this zone develops basic endurance and aerobic capacity. All easy recovery running should be completed at a maximum of 70%. Another advantage to running in this zone is that while you are happily fat burning you may lose weight and you will be allowing your muscles to re-energise with glycogen, which has been expended during those faster paced workouts.
 
Usually you do HIIT to lose fat/keep "toned".
However, I mentioned lifting 3x a week and HIIT 2x a week because you have to lift in order to keep the muscle, especially if you're cutting 300-500 calories and you may be cutting out some protein.

buzz, if both lifting and HIIT use EPOC, that's just more energy (and fat) that is going to be used after lifting AND HIIT. That way together, they will be burning more fat at rest than just one by itself. And since lifting heavy retains muscle, and HIIT adds to more RMR, then you would basically be doing more 3x a week than if you were to split it up and do it 5x a week.

Monday: Heavy Lifting, HIIT
Wednesday: Heavy Lifting, HIIT
Friday: Heavy Lifting, HIIT
Tuesday and Thursday: none

That coupled with maintaining protein and vegetables, with 300-500 calories less per day, would result in a greater fat loss, correct?
 
after lifting you are out of food to burn, doing HIIT then will probobly lead to the body looking for other energy sources, which usually means starting to break down muscle to burn for energy.

and i guess theres a limit for how much EPOC you can gather up.
 
as karky said.

and there is a fine balance when on a defecit of losing muscle as well as fat.

IMO get your EPOC from weights,burn some extra fat with fasted AM low intensity cardio.
 
after lifting you are out of food to burn, doing HIIT then will probobly lead to the body looking for other energy sources, which usually means starting to break down muscle to burn for energy.

I thought that only happened after 45 minutes. Like...20 minutes of weights, 20 minutes of HIIT.
 
i dident catch the whole 20 mins. But id rather just lift for longer and do cardio on the off days, if you do SS or HIIT wont really matter much.
 
yeah, works well. I think 20 mins might be a bit short for lifting. It doesnt have to be, but you want to warm up and get some good lifting inn, usually takes me about an hour to lift.
 
Ok, good. I think I'll just lift mon, wed, fri and HIIT tues and thurs.

If that doesn't work, well...there's something wrong with me...:eek2:

Incidently....what kind of exercises should I incorporate into my maintaining lifting? Bench press, military press, chin/pull ups, rows, etc.?

Oh and how many set to rep ratio? 3x5.....5x5???
 
Last edited:
exercises, those you mentioned but also squats and deadlifts, do you know how to do them? its important to use good form here.

yeah, vary the sets and reps with each lifting day. Will you be doing full body workouts 3 times a week? 3x5 one day 5x5 one day, maybe, 4x6 one day, or something like that. Do you usually have problem loosing weight? problems with burning enough cals? If so, you could throw inn some complexes to increase your metabolism, if you need this, just ask and ill link a few articles.

HIIT 2 times a week sounds good, you need atleast one day with resting so you dont run yourself into the ground. How long will you do your HIIT for? HIIT is pretty tough, dont feel ashamed if you feel you have to do HIIT one time and SS cardio the second time. Its pretty easy to get overworked on a cut because of the lack of energy.
 
actually HIIT wont waste muscle if its done on non weight days providing you pre fuel,as i doubt you would be able to do pure HIIT for more than 30mins, what i was saying was its a bit pointless doing it after weights.

Well, let's assume you ' pre-fuel ' in both cases. There is enough glycogen / glucose in the muscles, liver and blood of a typical gym rat to supply about 1,800 calories of energy of weight training - in addition to fuel coming from fat. And, let's also assume that in both cases, a gym rat does proper post workout fueling - assume the weight workout is for 1 hour.

Even if you do weights for 1 hour, it seems to me you aren't going at 95% MHR for a solid hour so - there a lots of rest period between exercises & sets where you'd be at 70% - 90% MHR - your fuel consumption isn't coming 100% from glycogen / glucose but rather from both fat and glycogen. So, what i'm getting at is that it would appear it isn't a complete depletion of glycogen that will trigger muscle to be sourced as fuel during weight training or HIIT - as I doubt 1 hour of weights along with 30 minutes of HIIT would burn any more than 700 of calories derived soley from glycogen / glucose.

Rather, it sounds like what you're saying is that after 45 minutes of weight training , an increase in cortisol is triggered by weight training and these higher levels of cortisol are present before you start 30 minutes of HIIT after the weight workout - and these higher levels of cortisol are present even if you did 30 minutes of ss cardio after the weight workout.

You said that " HIIT wont waste muscle if its done on non weight days ", so doing HIIT in and of itself must not raise cortisol levels. If that is the case, assuming a higher amount of cortisol is present before both a 30 minute HIIT or a 30 minute ss cardio session done after weights - why is it that HIIT will burn more muscle afterwards than ss cardio ?

Again, assuming glycogen stores are a non-issue, what is it about weight training that will make a 30 minute HIIT session done afterwards burn any more muscle a 30 minute ss-cardio session done afterwards ?
 
exercises, those you mentioned but also squats and deadlifts, do you know how to do them?
Yeah, I know the technique, I'll add those in.

Will you be doing full body workouts 3 times a week?
Yes. 3x a week will be deads squats, benches, ups, etc...

Do you usually have problem loosing weight? problems with burning enough cals? If so, you could throw inn some complexes to increase your metabolism, if you need this, just ask and ill link a few articles.
Nope, if I lower my cals good and run run run, I usually don't have a problem. Last year during summer vacation I lost about 30lbs by running and cutting, so I don't think I have a problem. Not to mention I've been eating like a horse for the last month and haven't noticed much fat increase.

How long will you do your HIIT for?
Probably for 10-12 minutes to start out, then gradually start up to 20 minutes. I don't want to overdo it and then get burnt out.

HIIT is pretty tough, dont feel ashamed if you feel you have to do HIIT one time and SS cardio the second time. Its pretty easy to get overworked on a cut because of the lack of energy.
Well, I'm pretty modivated so that shouldn't be a problem for me:rolleyes:
 
your body releases cortisol after approx 45mins, cortisol uses muscle as energy so to carry on doing an anearobic exercise like HIIT will hinder your gains,but if you do an aerobic exercise "low intensity" you will be using fat and not muscle.
if you can chug down a protein shake before you do HIIT and not puke it up you have a stronger stomache than me or your not doing proper HIIT:)

No it doesn't: the studies that looked at endocrine response, like most weight training studies, were done in a fasted state to minimize the variables. As long as you have a real breakfast/pre-workout meal, all of that goes out the window. That's why studies that compare just post-workout meals to pre-workout meals in terms of protein synthesis find that pre-workout meals are more effective. The real-world answer is to utilize both, of course.

With a healthy supply of amino acids and carbohydrates from the food eaten before the workout (1-2 hours before is fine), catabolic endocrine response to the muscle is controlled.

HIIT after weights isn't the best thing to do, but not specifically for catabolic reasons if nutrition is appropriate: it's simply overkill, and you won't be producing any useful effects from it. Remember: HIIT isn't some "magic potion" for weight loss: it's simply a tool, like everything else, and there are reasons to use it, as well as not to use it, depending on the scenario.
 
Bip.. does that throw the whole max an hour of lifting thingy right out the window? Ofcource, im not saying its a free card to lift for 3 hours, but..
 
No it doesn't: the studies that looked at endocrine response, like most weight training studies, were done in a fasted state to minimize the variables. As long as you have a real breakfast/pre-workout meal, all of that goes out the window. That's why studies that compare just post-workout meals to pre-workout meals in terms of protein synthesis find that pre-workout meals are more effective. The real-world answer is to utilize both, of course.

With a healthy supply of amino acids and carbohydrates from the food eaten before the workout (1-2 hours before is fine), catabolic endocrine response to the muscle is controlled.

HIIT after weights isn't the best thing to do, but not specifically for catabolic reasons if nutrition is appropriate: it's simply overkill, and you won't be producing any useful effects from it. Remember: HIIT isn't some "magic potion" for weight loss: it's simply a tool, like everything else, and there are reasons to use it, as well as not to use it, depending on the scenario.

Excellent post ......thanks.
 
Bip.. does that throw the whole max an hour of lifting thingy right out the window? Ofcource, im not saying its a free card to lift for 3 hours, but..

More or less...now, practically speaking, unless you're training specifically for a sport or athletic purpose, you really don't need to be in the gym for much more than an hour...anything more, and you're probably not working out efficiently or intelligently. The more recent research indicates, as jmanjman47 had been alluding to, sipping slowly on a whey shake (which will avoid stomach upset) throughout your workout will be your best bet if you are going to have a long workout. For reference, on my high volume weeks I'm probably in and out of the gym in around ~75 minutes (including warm-up/activation & mobility and cool-down/soft-tissue work) and closer to 45 minutes on low volume days.
 
Muscle Breakdown: Is Cortisol Leading You Down the Catabolic Pathway? by Rehan Jalali

Please send us your feedback on this article.

Walk into any so-called "hardcore" gym these days, and you’ll likely see ‘em by the dozens. They’re easy to spot… they’re the guys who spend hours on end pushing up plates, searching for supreme physical perfection, yet rarely finding it. They are the hopelessly over trained, and they’re afflicted with that old Protestant work ethic: a little training is good, so a whole lot must be better.

The very idea of producing a peak physique leads to a perverse temptation among these fellows to do all but pitch tent in the weight room and camp out there 24/7. "There’s no such thing as over training," they declare. Indeed, they know a lot of clichés and can spout them off with machine-gun repetition—No Pain, No Gain… If the Bar Ain’t a Bendin’, You’re Just Pretendin’… Go Heavy or Go Home. But ask them anything specific about exercise physiology or the dynamics of muscle-fibre hypertrophy and repair, and they’re as quiet as Tori Spelling playing Trivial Pursuit.

The bottom line is, if you’re among the band of hard-and-heavy lifters, cortisol may be literally eating away at your muscle-building potential. Weight training enthusiasts must declare all-out war on this catabolic hormone if they have any aspirations of building muscle. But before we attack all of your cortisol problems, some background on this intriguing subject is in order. After all, understanding leads to solutions (or was it madness?). Anyways, here goes….

Cortisol is the primary glucocorticoid. It is a natural hormone of the adrenal glands. Although cortisol's precise actions are not completely understood, we know that it is essential for life. Cortisol is necessary to maintain important processes in times of prolonged stress. Most of its effects are not directly responsible for the initiation of metabolic or circulatory processes, but it is necessary for their full response.

Cortisol Synthesis: Cholesterol--> Pregnenolone--> Progesterone -->17-Hydroxyprogesterone-->11-Deoxycortisol --> Cortisol.

Cortisol can exert its effects on peripheral tissue. Once in circulation, cortisol is typically bound to a specific glucocorticoid-binding alpha2-globulin called transcortin. About 75% of cortisol is bound to transcortin, 15% to 20% bound less tightly to albumin, and 5% of circulating cortisol is unbound (1). This is an important factor to take into consideration when measuring cortisol levels. The 24-hour urinary excretion of unmetabolised cortisol is one of the best ways to accurately gauge cortisol levels.

This helps take into account bound and free cortisol. Exogenous cortisol has a half-life of about 70 to 90 minutes. Cortisol can be converted to its 11-keto analogue cortisone (you know, the stuff you take when you have some bad swelling or inflammation).

The major catabolic effects of cortisol involve its facilitating the conversion of protein in muscles and connective tissue into glucose and glycogen (cortisol may increase liver glycogen). Gluconeogenesis involves both the increased degradation of protein already formed and the decreased synthesis of new protein. Cortisol can also decrease the utilization of glucose by cells by directly inhibiting glucose transport into the cells (1).

A cortisol excess can also lead to a decrease in insulin sensitivity. Cortisol also reduces the utilization of amino acids for protein formation in muscle cells. A cortisol excess can lead to a progressive loss of protein, muscle weakness and atrophy, and loss of bone mass through increased calcium excretion and less calcium absorption.

That is one of the reasons long-distance runners tend to have skinny physiques. With the amount of stress that runners place on their bodies, they have high levels of free radicals as well as cortisol.

Excess cortisol can also adversely affect tendon health. Cortisol causes a redistribution of body fat to occur through an unknown mechanism. Basically, the extremities lose fat and muscle while the trunk and face become fatter. Some of the signs of over training include higher cortisol levels, which may cause depression-type effects. Cortisol excess can also lead to hypertension because it causes sodium retention (which can make you appear bloated) and potassium excretion.

In other words, excessively high cortisol levels may turn you into a girly man! So the real challenge becomes how can cortisol levels be controlled but not inhibited completely because of cortisol's necessary anti-inflammatory effects?
One way is to take anti-cortisol supplements in the morning upon rising and then before bedtime, as these are two times that cortisol levels seem to be raised. Timed release would not be an option here because this may suppress cortisol levels over too long of an extended period. The key is to suppress elevated levels of cortisol, not decrease normal physiological levels of this hormone because as I mentioned earlier, a small amount is needed for it's anti-inflammatory and other effects.

Another one of cortisol's undesirable effects for athletes is it causes insulin resistance by decreasing the rate at which insulin activates the glucose uptake system, likely because of a post-insulin receptor block (2).

Any type of stress that occurs to the body signals the nervous system to relay this to the hypothalamus. The hypothalamus then responds by initiating the stress-hormone cascade starting with CRF (corticotrophin releasing hormone) followed by ACTH (adrenocorticotropic hormone) release, and finally glucocorticoid production (pretty intense, huh?). Stress to the human body can include trauma, anxiety, infections, surgery, and even resistance training and aerobics. Recent research has shown that increased cortisol levels also increased protein breakdown by 5% to 20%. (3)

Even mild elevations in serum cortisol can increase plasma glucose concentration and protein catabolism within a few hours in healthy individuals. (4) Cortisol increases with increasing time of intense exercise. In over trained individuals, cortisol levels increase while testosterone levels decrease. That is why one measure of over training is the testosterone-cortisol ratio. By the way, over training is defined as an increase in training volume and/or intensity of exercise leading to a decrease in performance. Cortisol can increase body fat levels especially when it’s increased dramatically in the body. Increased cortisol levels have an adverse effect on testosterone levels.

In fact, one of the primary anti-catabolic effects of testosterone and anabolic steroids is its decreasing muscle cortisol metabolism. (5) That is one reason why many athletes can completely over train when taking anabolic steroids and still increase lean body mass and strength. Some research indicates that cortisol response to resistance training normalizes after about five weeks and that the testosterone- cortisol ratio is not adversely affected after long periods of resistance training. (6) This suggests that the body has an adaptive response.

Cortisol can inhibit growth-hormone levels by stimulating the release of somatostatin (a growth-hormone antagonist). It may also reduce IGF-1 expression (IGF-1 is one of the most anabolic agents in the body and is the substance that is responsible for most of growth hormone’s positive effects because GH converts into IGF-1 in the liver).

Cortisol has other hormone-modifying effects. Cortisol can directly inhibit pituitary gonadotropin and TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone). (7) By doing so, it can make the target tissues of sex steroids and growth factors resistant to these substances. It may also suppress an enzyme known as 5' deiodinase, which converts the relatively inactive thyroid hormone T4 to the active one known as T3 or triiodothyronine. This can decrease metabolic rate and make it harder to lose body fat (it's already hard enough for people and anything making it harder definitely needs to be kicked to the curb).

There are different stages in sleep and during one stage, cortisol levels are elevated because protein is being re-cycled. This is one reason that cortisol-suppressing supplements should be taken before bedtime to help minimize excess cortisol production during sleep.

Cortisol also seems to play a role in various disease states. It is found in higher-than-normal levels in diseases ranging from AIDS and multiple sclerosis to Alzheimer's. Prolonged high levels of cortisol can throw the immune system into chaos and ravage the human body. A growing number of researchers believe that many of the worst, and least-understood, diseases will soon be identified as caused by high cortisol, and subsequently treated with cortisol-reducing drugs or supplements.

There was an anti-cortisol conference (the second one ever conducted) held in Las Vegas in 1997 and headed up by Steroidogenesis Inhibitors Inc. and Dr. Alfred T. Sapse. This conference had many researchers involved in anti-cortisol research. Abstracts were presented on various supplemental and drug therapies for decreasing cortisol levels, especially in excessive cortisol-production disorders. In particular, there was an abstract presented by Dr. Sapse that mentioned some nutritional supplements to lower cortisol levels in the body.

These included gingko biloba, Vitamin A, Zinc, and acetyl l-carnitine (8). Other abstracts presented there discussed the role of DHEA and its metabolites in helping to decrease cortisol levels. (9) Some abstracts presented looked at the progression of cortisol-induced diseases. Overall, the conference was very informative and helped researchers answer many questions on cortisol and anti-cortisol therapies as well as opened the door for further anti-cortisol research.

Cortisol suppression may be an essential part in the recovery process for athletes involved in a rigorous training program. In fact, one of the signs of over training syndrome is high cortisol levels. Moderating (not completely diminishing) cortisol levels is an essential factor in allowing weight-training individuals to completely recover from their exercise session and maximize results (something we would all like to do).

It may be a very good idea to get cortisol levels tested by a qualified physician (when I say qualified, I mean one who has done this sort of thing before and has been to medical school) on a regular basis. One of the best times to test cortisol levels is first thing in the morning on an empty stomach. This reference value or proper range for cortisol first thing in the morning should be between 4 mcg/dl and 19 mcg/dl with the sample being taken from blood. The normal range for free cortisol levels measured from urine is between 10 pg/ml and 110 pg/ml. There is also another way to measure cortisol through a salivary cortisol screening. The normal range for cortisol with this test first thing in the morning is between 100nmol/L and 300nmol/L. These tests may not have the final say in determining high cortisol levels but, it will certainly give you an idea about where your cortisol levels stand.

Controlling Cortisol Levels
Here are some solid tips to help control cortisol levels:

1) Diet: Make sure you are supplying your body with all the essential nutrients you need to prevent deficiencies and for optimal function. This includes plenty of high-quality protein, complex carbohydrates, essential fatty acids, and vitamins and minerals. Try not to restrict calories continuously as some research suggests that restricting normal caloric intake by 50% can lead to a subsequent increase in cortisol levels by 38%. (10)

2) Do not over train: Try not to work out three or more days in a row without taking a day off. KEEP WORKOUTS TO UNDER AN HOUR AT MOST and train efficiently and intensely. I know this phrase has been beaten to death but LISTEN TO YOUR BODY!

Take enough rest days between workouts - If you are really sore, wait an extra day to train until your body fully recovers from your previous workout. Remember, less may be more in this case.

4) Relax and try not to get stressed out easily: Take an evening walk with a loved one or take a nap when you get a chance.

5) Try to get at least eight hours of sleep per night: Sleep is crucial to the recovery and recuperation process.

6) Spike Insulin levels after a workout: Insulin actually interferes with cortisol and may enhance cortisol clearance from the body. Spiking insulin levels after a workout (by consuming a high-glycaemic index carbohydrate) may help minimize excessive cortisol levels since cortisol levels are elevated significantly post resistance training.
 
yeah, it says dont train for over an hour, but it doesnt show any study where they ate a propper pre workout meal that showes a spike in cortisol levels after an hour.

Its pretty much the same thing as the whole "post workout fast carbs and protein" thing, in most studies the subjects trained just after an overnight fast, which does not make sence since most people eat before they go workout. Id like to see a study on both the whole PWO shake thing and cortisol where the subjects trained maybe at 6 PM and had been up all day eating and drinking like regular people.
 
Muscle Breakdown: Is Cortisol Leading You Down the Catabolic Pathway? by Rehan Jalali

Even mild elevations in serum cortisol can increase plasma glucose concentration and protein catabolism within a few hours in healthy individuals. (4) Cortisol increases with increasing time of intense exercise. In over trained individuals, cortisol levels increase while testosterone levels decrease. That is why one measure of over training is the testosterone-cortisol ratio. By the way, over training is defined as an increase in training volume and/or intensity of exercise leading to a decrease in performance. Cortisol can increase body fat levels especially when it’s increased dramatically in the body. Increased cortisol levels have an adverse effect on testosterone levels.

.

I don't think anyone is questioning whether or not the adverse consequences of cortisol exist or not - they do. Although ( judging from bipennate's response to your earlier post ) the ' when & how & if ' of when a cortisol response get's triggered may vary quite a bit......i.e with respect to the duration and frequency of weight training and in conjunction with one's nutrition.

That aside, I was more interested on your views of doing HIIT after weight trainig vs doing ss cardio afterwards vs doing HIIT simply on it's own ......as it pertains to any possible enhanced rate of muscle loss.

You seemed to indicate that after 45 minutes of weight training , an increase in cortisol is triggered by weight training. And these higher levels of cortisol are present before you start 30 minutes of HIIT ( after the weight workout ). It also follows that these higher levels of cortisol are present even if you did 30 minutes of lower intensity ss cardio after the weight workout.

You said that " HIIT wont waste muscle if its done on non weight days ", so doing HIIT in and of itself must not raise cortisol levels. And you also said " but if you do an aerobic exercise "low intensity" [ after weights ] you will be using fat and not muscle " If that is the case, assuming a higher amount of cortisol is present before both a 30 minute HIIT or a 30 minute ss cardio session done after weights - why is it that HIIT will burn more muscle afterwards than say ss cardio done after weights ?

What is it about weight training that will make a 30 minute HIIT session done afterwards burn any more muscle than a 30 minute ss-cardio session done after weight training ?

Perhaps you could elaborate.
 
Back
Top