Delimna, more or less calories to loose BF%

[Utah Rod]

Hello everyone,
This is my 1st post and I'm sure that I cant possibly be the 1st person to ask this questionbut havent been able to find it anywhere yet.

WHY CANT I GET MY BODY FAT% TO GO ANY LOWER?
Some specifics. (a bit long winded but more detail means better understanding of a situation)
I'm Male, 42, 6'1", currently 186 lbs. Used to have a very high metabolism but its slowing down the las 5 years or so.
1 year ago I weighed 215. I stopped drinking soda and eating a whopper 3-4 times a week for lunch.(man, i miss my Mt.Dew and whoppers!) By 9-17-06 I was down to 195lbs. working out at the gym 4 days a week. #1Back/ Bi's- #2 Chest/Tri's - #3 Calves/shoulders - #4 Legs.
Injury stopped me going to gym from Sept 1st to around MArch 24th.
Once my shoulder started getting to where I thought i could get back to the gym I started preparing for that. I did a cleanse about 1 week+ before i started back at the gym.
The cleanse: (each day includes Lower bowel cleanse capsules fro health food store)
Day1- TONS of water, total of 16oz or so of fresh apple juice during the day.
Day2- TONS of water, total of 16oz or so of fresh apple juice during the day, 12oz V8 for supper.
Day3- TONS of water, total of 16oz or so of fresh apple juice during the day, 12oz V8 for supper.
Day4- TONS of water, 3 stalks of celery and a bowl of oatmeal for lunch, Liver cleanse from this web site-
DAy6- TONS of water, total of 16oz or so of fresh apple juice during the day, 12oz V8 for supper.

I was planning to do the cleanse for 10 days. I weighed 197 the day I started the cleanse. I had been weighing myself each weekday once I got to work and was loosing 3 lbs EVERY day and on Monday morning (no scale since friday)of day 7 I weighed myself and was down to 179 lbs. I'd lost 18 lbs in 6 days. I figured if i kept going for 4 more days I'd be down to around 167 and that was way too low. I started eating a bit of vegetables on that day and slowly worked back up to regular meals over the next 2 days.
The problem with the 18 lbs I lost was that a BIG chunk of it was muscle. So I was happy with the extra fluff id lost but not with the muscle, of course. I started back to the gym a 5- 6 weeks ago and im gettign the muscle back. I'm right now back up to 186lbs. My muscles arent back to where they used to be yet but I have alot more definition that i had earlier. You can at least see my top two pairs of ab muscles.
I also started eating MUCH better than before once I finished the cleanse. NO junk food, and watching ingredients of the food I eat MUCH closer. I found this website - - and from it was pointed to a book called "The Abs Diet" (its not really a diet book, its moe of a lifestyle change when it comes to eating.)
So, nowI'm watching what I eat MUCh closer, working out at the Gym 4 days a week. I still have a some fluff around my abs though that I JUST CANT GET RID OF.
I bought a Body fat/ Total Body Water/ Scale to keep track of my progress.
It tells me now that I'm still around 21% BF w/ 58% Total body water. Its did say once that I was at 15.6% BF at 68.8% TBW but at 58% TBW, which is what it usualy reads, I'm around 21% BF.
I watch my Protein and try to get close to 200g per day. I try not to eat HIGH carbs foods with high GI index's.


I havent been watching my calories, but I did yesterday I tracked my calories and at 192g of protein I only had 1600+ a few calories. So, I'd say I'm probable averaging 1500- 2100 calories a day. At 6'1" and 186 lbs my scale says I should be getitng around 3560 calories a day to maintain that weight. I'm seem to be barely getting half that and the fluff around my waist isnt getting ANY smaller it seems. I'm gaining muscle and weight (of course) but not loosing any more body fat.
Typical day now.
5:30am-12oz skim milk w/ Protein powder
6:00 gym
7:30 Home from gym, oatmeal & protein shake
10:30 yogurt & 12 almonds
12:00 1-2 6oz cans of tuna w/ mustard or if i go out to lunch weggies and grilled chicken
2:30 2 tbsp of fresh ground peanut butter from the health food store - no additives (i gring it there myself)
5:00-6:00 supper lean meat and veggies most nights, brownm rice, etc
9:00 protein shake or some other small snack, no candies or treats of any kind.

Sorry for the long winded background info leading up to this question.

WHY CANT I GET MY BODY FAT% TO GO ANY LOWER? Without doing another cleanse and loosing a bunch of muscle again.

Is it because I'm NOT gettign enough calories? I know it seems backwards but is that my problem?
Do I need to start getting more calories? AND, if so, how do i double my calories without eating a bunch of high calorie, less healthy (High GI index, high fructose corn syrup, saturated and trans fat) foods, etc.?

Thanks for your time to ANYONE with the fortitude to read this whole post,
Rodney

 

[tonymcclellan]

What is your bodyfat %?

 

[calcium]

What is your bodyfat %?

lol, after all that explanation it was funny to see this one line in reponse to it.

I believe he said he thinks his bodyfat % is anywhere from 16-21%

~Nicole

 

[Wrangell]

lol, after all that explanation it was funny to see this one line in reponse to it.

I believe he said he thinks his bodyfat % is anywhere from 16-21%

~Nicole

Being athletic, at 6'1", currently 186 lbs., I'd guess he's proabably closer to 14%+

 

[trekguy]

I believe you and I are in the same boat.

I'm no expert, but I'm curious as to how you are able to gain weight/muscle with a caloric intake that seems to be less that what you would need. ??

I also didn't notice any reference to cardio. Longer sessions of running or cycling would seem to be in order to lose the fluff.

The cleansing thing is kinda scary. Why would you want to starve your body for such a long period of time? Seems like a good way to mess up/slow down your metabolism.

I would also suggest some more real food, in place of some of the protein shakes.

Bottom line is, you have to fuel the furnace. More food, more weights, more cardio.

 

[goergen1]

Why would you want to starve your body for such a long period of time? Seems like a good way to mess up/slow down your metabolism.

Answered you own question. With cleansing diets like that most people will gain for the first month after. Just because going from no food to food will really mess things up and slow metabolism.

 

[tonymcclellan]

lol, after all that explanation it was funny to see this one line in reponse to it.

I believe he said he thinks his bodyfat % is anywhere from 16-21%

~Nicole

Ooops, ya I see it now.

 

[Utah Rod]

TonyMcClellan-
The scale I have (Taylor 5582) says my BF% is right around 21% when I'm at around 58% TBW (total body water). If I'm around 61% TBW , BF% is around 19%. At 68.8% TBW I get a reading of 15.6% BF. So it fluctuates acording to hydration but 58% TBW seems to be about the norm with me drinking at least 3 liters of water a day. I'll try to get a pic posted in the next day or so and you can judge for yourself if it looks closer to 15% or 20% BF. I'm not a good judge of that yet.
I just checked myself on my scale. In non-athletic mode it tells me I'm at 20.9% BF and 60.1% TBW. In Athletic mode it reads 15.0% BF and 60.5% TBW.
The manual says Athletic mode is someone who gets 10hrs of aerobic type exercise per week and a resting heart beat of 60. I work out around 6 hours a week and my resting heart rate was just now 69 beats in 1 minute. I've been using the non-athletic mode since I dont quite meet the req for athletic mode. SO, I'd say I'm somewhere between 15-20% BF. But really, I'm not real concerned right now on wheter im using the correct type (athletic ot non-athletic). I'm just concerned with lowering my BF% no matter which one I use.


Trekguy-
"I'm no expert, but I'm curious as to how you are able to gain weight/muscle with a caloric intake that seems to be less that what you would need. ??"

I try to get as close to 190g of protein per day. I know back when I was younger and working out (late 80's -early 90s) the trick to +muscle/-BF was to get lots of Protein and starve yourself on cal. I have definatley been gaining muscle since the cleanse. Many people have commented on it and my shirts are tighter. But the fluff isnt going down much since the cleanse it seems. (I personaly think its BECAUSE i'm not getting enough cal. and my body is in starvation mode.)

"I also didn't notice any reference to cardio. Longer sessions of running or cycling would seem to be in order to lose the fluff."

Your correct there. I dont do ANY official cardio. I barely have time to get in a workout before its time to get to work and no time left for cardio. I could do cardio on wednesday, my day off and even possible sat morning depending on my schedule. Would 1 to 2 days a week of cardio make much difference? The cardio i get is from running up and down 2 flights of stairs all day at work. Never for extended periods of time but I am constantly going up and down most of the day 4-6 times an hour I'd say. I always run up and down also, just could never stand walking slow or walking on stairs (guess thats how I got the "Most Energetic" title in my senior yearbook.

"The cleansing thing is kinda scary. Why would you want to starve your body for such a long period of time? Seems like a good way to mess up/slow down your metabolism."

The theory was to cleanse out my bowels and thereby be able to absorb more of the nutrients I injest. I did go from 28.8% BF to 17.5% BF on the gyms BF% calculator during the cleanse. Unfortunately, like I stated, I lost a lot of muscle too.

"I would also suggest some more real food, in place of some of the protein shakes."

That is part of my question. How do i dramaticaly increase my cal intake without eating a lot of low quality food or lots of protein shakes?

Goergen1-
"With cleansing diets like that most people will gain for the first month after. Just because going from no food to food will really mess things up and slow metabolism."

I DID gain 4 lbs. back almost imediatley after ending the cleanse. I've gained another 5 or so lbs since then but I'm almost possitive its all muscle since my stomach is slightly smaller now then it was after the cleanse and my arms, chest, and shoulders are noticably bigger than after the cleanse.

 

[Wrangell]

TonyMcClellan-
The scale I have (Taylor 5582) says my BF% is right around 21% when I'm at around 58% TBW (total body water). If I'm around 61% TBW , BF% is around 19%. At 68.8% TBW I get a reading of 15.6% BF. So it fluctuates acording to hydration but 58% TBW seems to be about the norm with me drinking at least 3 liters of water a day. I'll try to get a pic posted in the next day or so and you can judge for yourself if it looks closer to 15% or 20% BF. I'm not a good judge of that yet.
I just checked myself on my scale. In non-athletic mode it tells me I'm at 20.9% BF and 60.1% TBW. In Athletic mode it reads 15.0% BF and 60.5% TBW.
The manual says Athletic mode is someone who gets 10hrs of aerobic type exercise per week and a resting heart beat of 60. I work out around 6 hours a week and my resting heart rate was just now 69 beats in 1 minute. I've been using the non-athletic mode since I dont quite meet the req for athletic mode. SO, I'd say I'm somewhere between 15-20% BF. But really, I'm not real concerned right now on wheter im using the correct type (athletic ot non-athletic). I'm just concerned with lowering my BF% no matter which one I use.

Just so I'm clear, you only started weight training 6X a week about 5 weeks ago - March 24. The week before you started, you went on a cleansing diet and lost of lot weight ( 18lbs in 6 days ) and lost a bunch of muscle along the way. So now, your primary goal is not to add any more substantial muscle mass, but simply to keep the muscle you have and lose fat based on a 6X a week weight training program, a reduced caloried diet of 1500- 2100 calories a day and no ' formal ' cardio at all. So, the purpose of the 6X a week in the gym with the weights is to burn calories while you're lifting weights and to have an after-burn effect kick in to burn more calories as well. Have I got it right ?

btw - how often a month do you check your bf% reading on this scale you have ? Once a month, twice a month , weekly ?

Trekguy-
"I'm no expert, but I'm curious as to how you are able to gain weight/muscle with a caloric intake that seems to be less that what you would need. ??"

I try to get as close to 190g of protein per day. I know back when I was younger and working out (late 80's -early 90s) the trick to +muscle/-BF was to get lots of Protein and starve yourself on cal. I have definatley been gaining muscle since the cleanse. Many people have commented on it and my shirts are tighter. But the fluff isnt going down much since the cleanse it seems. (I personaly think its BECAUSE i'm not getting enough cal. and my body is in starvation mode.)

Again, just so I'm clear on your goals - you aren't wanting to gain significant muscle and lose significant fat at the same time...you just want to hold on to your muscle you have and drop a lot of fat - about 15 lbs of fat - .....correct ?

Also, since your lean body mass is closer to 148 lbs, I'm not so sure the 40 lbs of fat you're carrying around needs that much protien. Given your training schedule as it now stands, you might be closer to 175 +/- grams of protien instead of 190. But, that's anyone's guess.

"I also didn't notice any reference to cardio. Longer sessions of running or cycling would seem to be in order to lose the fluff."

Your correct there. I dont do ANY official cardio. I barely have time to get in a workout before its time to get to work and no time left for cardio. I could do cardio on wednesday, my day off and even possible sat morning depending on my schedule. Would 1 to 2 days a week of cardio make much difference? The cardio i get is from running up and down 2 flights of stairs all day at work. Never for extended periods of time but I am constantly going up and down most of the day 4-6 times an hour I'd say. I always run up and down also, just could never stand walking slow or walking on stairs (guess thats how I got the "Most Energetic" title in my senior yearbook.

Cardio boosts your metabolism directly and indirectly - it is a useful addition to any fat loss program. And, I wouldn't consider stairs as being cardio - that's simply life.

One option to fit some cardio in would be to tighten the time it takes to do you a weight training session and with the time you save, tack on some cardio at the end of each weight session.

Or re-tool your whole approach. If you are at the gym 6X a week, change your weight training program back to 3X a week. This could be a full body 3X a week workout which is intense and is based on compound lifts to maximize the recruitment of muscles. Or, even a 4 day split is another option. On the days you free up, start adding cardio. Start with steady cardio just to get some sort of aerobic base in place, and slowly introduce some interval based cardio so you can eventually move up to some more intense " high intensity " interval cardio training.

"The cleansing thing is kinda scary. Why would you want to starve your body for such a long period of time? Seems like a good way to mess up/slow down your metabolism."

The theory was to cleanse out my bowels and thereby be able to absorb more of the nutrients I injest. I did go from 28.8% BF to 17.5% BF on the gyms BF% calculator during the cleanse. Unfortunately, like I stated, I lost a lot of muscle too.

Seems all you did was lose muscle mass and in doing so, reduced your maintenance calorie level from what it was before. And in doing that, you've simply made it much easier for you to gain fat than before you starved yourself.

"I would also suggest some more real food, in place of some of the protein shakes."

That is part of my question. How do i dramaticaly increase my cal intake without eating a lot of low quality food or lots of protein shakes?

Along with weight training and cardio, you want a good diet. The bulk ( if not all ) of that diet should come from real food - not fake food IMO. And the best way to do that is to eat 6 or samll meals throughout the day - every 2.5- 3.0 hours if you can - along with a small pre-workout snack and post-workout snack. First, it is dead simple to get 175+ grams of protien a day from real food. You don't need 3 protien shakes a day to get there. For me, I see no reason for more than 1 shake a day - and only as a post workout meal. Even at that, if you eat all day long and have amino acids in your system all the time you can probably get away with just a small snack of real food after a workout and forgo a shake. Something like an energy bar and a sports drink, 1 cup fruit yogurt with some granola, some milk with a cereal bar etc. etc.

Goergen1-
"With cleansing diets like that most people will gain for the first month after. Just because going from no food to food will really mess things up and slow metabolism."

I DID gain 4 lbs. back almost imediatley after ending the cleanse. I've gained another 5 or so lbs since then but I'm almost possitive its all muscle since my stomach is slightly smaller now then it was after the cleanse and my arms, chest, and shoulders are noticably bigger than after the cleanse.

So, you're saying you're on a restricted diet based on creating a calorie deficit, by doing this, you have gained 5 lbs of muscle in about 5+ weeks. That is good, since in most cases, the only way to gain a 1 lb of mucle a week is to be in a calorie surplus or at the very least, very close to your maintenance calories.

 

[(Silent)]

So, you're saying you're on a restricted diet based on creating a calorie deficit, by doing this, you have gained 5 lbs of muscle in about 5+ weeks. That is good, since in most cases, the only way to gain a 1 lb of mucle a week is to be in a calorie surplus or at the very least, very close to your maintenance calories.

Just wanted to add, Gaining a pound of muscle a week is completely an entirely impossible. 1-2pounds a Month can be done if one trains and eats correctly.

 

[Wrangell]

Just wanted to add, Gaining a pound of muscle a week is completely an entirely impossible. 1-2pounds a Month can be done if one trains and eats correctly.

My point is, it is very difficult to add significant muscle mass while you are in a significant calorie deficit. He claims to be gaining 1 lb a week of muscle while in significant calorie deficit ( i.e somewhere just below 20% of his maintenace calories - but then again, I'm just guessing ). In his case, I have my doubts.

So while it is not impossible to gain 1/2 to 1 lb. per week of muscle mass - you need a lot of calories and some very focused and hard training with appropriate exercises to pull it off IMO.

 

[Utah Rod]

I'll answer silent 1st since it will be quickest.
Silent-
I'm not claiming anything. Just stating what my scale reads. Your point is well taken though. I'm definately not an expert body builder and my workouts I'm sure could use some more intensity. My left elbow and shoulder being weak from eight months of babying to get them healthy enough to get back to the gym makes it harder. The stuff I can barely do with my left (weak arm) is barely noticable with my right.
Heres what the scale tells me.
After cleanse- 179lbs. Four days after the cleanse, once I was back on a regular diet, I started back to the gym. in the next day or so I gained back 4 of the lost 18 lbs. since then the scale fluctuates between 185 -188. Depending on the previous days meals it seems. The BF% before the cleanse was 28.8. Now it reads around 19- 21% depending on my hydration of 58% TBW. The fluff around my stomach seems to have lessened since the cleanse just slightly but I guess that doesnt mean I didnt gain the fat back somewhere else. Which is apparently the case because like you stated, 5 lbs in 5 weeks is impossible.

"Wrangell-
"My point is, it is very difficult to add significant muscle mass while you are in a significant calorie deficit. "
At 1st I wasnt real worried about my low calorie intake because of the articles I'd read in my OLD muiscle & Fitness mags. Several articles talked about the best way to gain mass while loosing fat was to have a surplus of protein and a deficit of calories. (those mags are from 1996 BTW). Apparently thats an old school train of thought and not correct. Thats the reason for this post. I started thinking while reading more, that the +prot/ -cal wasnt working for me so I thought Id better ask you folks who know MUCH more than I do about the subject.

Now to answer your 1st post Wrangell. I guess I must have not stated myself clearly because your assumptions of my goals arent really what I am working towards. Let me clarify by answering your questions.

Wrangell-
"Just so I'm clear, you only started weight training 6X a week about 5 weeks ago - March 24."
I believe I stated I work out 6 HOURS a week, not 6 days a week. thats a mon/tues/thurs/fri split week. Nothing on weekends.
"The week before you started, you went on a cleansing diet and lost of lot weight ( 18lbs in 6 days ) and lost a bunch of muscle along the way. So now, your primary goal is not to add any more substantial muscle mass, but simply to keep the muscle you have and lose fat based on a 6X a week weight training program, ...."
No, I want to gain quite a bit more size AND get down to around 10% BF.

"a reduced caloried diet of 1500- 2100 calories a day and no ' formal ' cardio at all."
I'm pretty sure that i'm not getting nearly enough cal to accomplish the goal two lines up from here. And I was afraid to start cardio because I figured since I'm not getting enough cal I'd just start burning up muscle. Looks like I need to get ALOT more cal AND start cardio. Correct?

"btw - how often a month do you check your bf% reading on this scale you have ? Once a month, twice a month , weekly ?
I just got the scale on the 19th of this month(april). I started by taking a reading EVERY time I did something.
(example:
reading 1- 6:00 amwoke up, went to bathroom, took reading
reading 2- 6:10 drank protein shake , took reading headed to gym
reading 3- 7:30 home from gym, came home, took reading
#4- 7:45am took shower, took reading
#5- 8:00am ate oatmeal and another protein shake, took reading
#6- 5:30pm home from work, before supper, took reading
#7- 6:30after supper, took reading
#8- 9:00pm before bed, took reading)
Yes I kow, thats a ton of readings but my goal there for the 1st few days was to see if ANYTHING made a significant change in the readings. Nothing did BTW. The only thing I've found that makes a significant change is how hydrated I am. I now check it every few days after I get out of the shower in the mornings but dont pay a whole lot of attention to the readings because I know its too short of a time span. I hear that every few weeks or even once a month is best for actual readings.

"Again, just so I'm clear on your goals - you aren't wanting to gain significant muscle and lose significant fat at the same time...you just want to hold on to your muscle you have and drop a lot of fat - about 15 lbs of fat - .....correct ?"
again to clarify.-No, I want to gain quite a bit more size AND get down to around 10% BF.

"Also, since your lean body mass is closer to 148 lbs, I'm not so sure the 40 lbs of fat you're carrying around needs that much protien. Given your training schedule as it now stands, you might be closer to 175 +/- grams of protien instead of 190. But, that's anyone's guess."
WOW, I never realy figured out my actual lean mass. I'm a skinny little fella under this fat.
Also I'm assuming that my scale is correct at around 20% BF. If I put it on athletic mode it tells me I'm around 15% BF. I'll post a few pics hopefully by tomorrow. Maybe that will give everyone a better idea of whether I'm at 15% or 20% BF. then I can decide which mode to use on my scale. BUT, once again you prob right about the amout of protein I need. I was going off of weight and not off of lean mass. (I still have a lot to learn)

"Cardio boosts your metabolism directly and indirectly - it is a useful addition to any fat loss program. And, I wouldn't consider stairs as being cardio - that's simply life.'
I dont consider it cardio.

option to fit some cardio in would be to tighten the time it takes to do you a weight training session and with the time you save, tack on some cardio at the end of each weight session."
I can do cardio on wednesdays, and possibly sat mornings depending on my schedule. Would that be enough?

" start with steady cardio just to get some sort of aerobic base in place, and slowly introduce some interval based cardio so you can eventually move up to some more intense " high intensity " interval cardio training."
Hey I did do some interval training at the locak football field/track last weekend. running and sprints. Man It was pathetic how out of shope I am. Of course I havent run actual sprints since high school 23 years ago hehe. I'll start working on the cardio/endurance stuff.

"And the best way to do that is to eat 6 or samll meals throughout the day - every 2.5- 3.0 hours if you can - along with a small pre-workout snack and post-workout snack."
Right now I DO eat around 6 small meals a day. I try to eat something at least every 3 hours.

"So, you're saying you're on a restricted diet based on creating a calorie deficit..."
I wasnt trying to be on a restriced diet at all. I was just trying to get 190g of protein and it ended up being only around 1600 cal a day. I'm now sure thats not near enough cal /day. I'll start figuring out how to get more cal and fat/carbs.

Thanks agin for all your input. Not only does it help clear up thnigs for me but it gets me thinking about things I havent really thought about as of yet. I appreciate it very much.

 

[bobijo]

Okay - coming from someone who knows Utah Rod, he's being overly critical. He has shown definite improvement in his appearance - HUGE improvement. His so called "belly fluff" is not nearly as apparent now as it was even just two weeks ago. Scales are not the sources to rely upon. It's nice to know from time to time but you have to go by visual, and the way clothes fit. I definitely agree he needs more calories as I am only 5'1" and eating more calories than he is. I'm not gaining in BF or weight, I'm slowly losing - so clearly he needs more calories. The biggest question we've been trying to figure out is simply where should they come from. I do agree with the "eating food" as opposed to protein shakes more often, but at the same time it's difficult while at work. There are going to be more calories in real food than the protein shake.

 

[tonymcclellan]

How about shakes with more than just protein? Taken from Metabolism Advantage by John Berardi:

1 to 1 1/2 cups water
1 serving Greens+
3tbsp plain yogurt
3tbsp ground flaxseed
1 scoop chocolate protein powder
mix
add
3tbsp mixed nuts
1tbsp peanut butter
mix

Pretty damn good and filling. Add some ice so that it will be cold.

 

[(Silent)]

My point is, it is very difficult to add significant muscle mass while you are in a significant calorie deficit. He claims to be gaining 1 lb a week of muscle while in significant calorie deficit ( i.e somewhere just below 20% of his maintenace calories - but then again, I'm just guessing ). In his case, I have my doubts.

So while it is not impossible to gain 1/2 to 1 lb. per week of muscle mass - you need a lot of calories and some very focused and hard training with appropriate exercises to pull it off IMO.

I did not say it was not possible Because of a calorie Deficit. I said it was simply impossible to gain a pound consisting of 100% muscle a week.

 

[Utah Rod]

Ok here are some pics from this morning. I'll try to get some better ones soon.

After taking a look at these pics I'm pretty sure that the 21% reading I get is more acurate than the 15%.