Whats the science behind overtraining?

M

Mother_Bob

0
What happens to your muscles when you overtrain them? Even when the overtraining does not hurt your muscles after?

3 sets of 5-10 reps is not overtraining, but if I were to do 6 sets of 5-10 reps, why would the muscle not grow bigger since its still tearing the muscle and needs rest to heal it?

I don't really understand the science behind why your muscle won't grow bigger once its been rested up after overtraining (the kind of overtraining when it doesn't hurt the muscle at all)

Even if the muscle you have overtrained hurts a lot after, why does it not expand when it rests and heals?

I hope you guys can understand what I'm trying to ask here
 
Well, overtraining usually results from not giving your muscles enough time to rest. IE: Training the same muscle everyday, or to the point where your muscles don't contract properly. If you can do 6x5-10 reps (first off I would reccomend a little less reps, maybe 5/6-8) then why would you be doing 3 sets of the same weight? Your workout should push your muscles to make them adapt, to make them bigger and stronger. I do 3x5-8 reps for my bench press, and for the weight I use, if I tried to do a 4th set I probably wouldn't make it passed 3 reps. If you can do 6x5-10 then you should up the weight and make sure you're not getting more than a 90 second breaks in between sets.
 
stroutman81 said:
It is usually a combination of both actually. It can also be one muscle group or the entire body.
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yes but its normaly the CNS that burns out first it is very difficult to overtrain a muscle.


Researchers: Chen TC, Hsieh SS.

Institution: Department of Ball-Related Sports Science, Taipei Physical Education College, Taipei City, Taiwan.

Source: Medicine and Science Sports & Exercise 2001 Oct;33(10):1732-8

Purpose: This study examined the effects of a 7-day repeated maximal isokinetic eccentric training period on the indicators of muscle damage and inflammatory response.

Methods: Twenty-two college-age males were randomly assigned to eccentric training (ET) and control groups (CON). The initial exercise was 30 repetitions of maximal voluntary isokinetic eccentric contraction (ECC1) on non-dominant elbow flexors with Cybex 6000 at 60 degrees.s-1 angular velocity. The ET group performed the same exercise for the following 6 consecutive days (referred to as ECC2 to ECC7) after ECC1. Upper arm circumference (CIR), range of motion (ROM), and maximal isometric force (MIF) were measured before, immediately after, and every 24 h for 7 consecutive days after ECC1. Plasma creatine kinase (CK), lactate dehydrogenase (LDH), glutamic oxaloacetate transaminase (GOT), leukocyte counts, and serum interleukin-1beta and -6 (IL-1beta, IL-6) levels were assessed before; at 2 h; and at 1, 3, 4, 6, and 7 d after ECC1. Muscle soreness was measured before and for 7 consecutive days after ECC1.

Results: The ECC1 produced significant changes in most of the measures for both groups, with the exception of leukocyte counts. No indicators of increased damage were found from the second consecutive day of eccentric training to the 7th day for the eccentric training group.

Conclusion: Continuous intensive isokinetic eccentric training performed with damaged muscles did not exacerbate muscle damage and inflammation after ECC1. In addition, a muscular "adaptation effect" may occur as early as 24 h after ECC1, as shown by the ET group's performance for 6 consecutive days after ECC1.
 
That study does very little for me, which I think I made this same comment when you used it the other day in another post. Random group testing has very little comparable properties with the athlete who is training multiple times per week. There is a reason for periodocity. What about glycogen depletion? Actually, I am not going to get into questions b/c I am really not in the mood to debate this subject.
 
from an article on fatigue
(quote)
Muscle tissue, as indicated earlier, has been shown to recover amidst continued loading. Take for example "synergistic ablation" studies. In these studies the gastrocnemius of an animal is cut so that the standing load is placed almost entirely on the soleus. In these studies the animal’s soleus is subject to a dramatic increase in load during every waking hour. There is no "rest between sets or workouts" or any kind of sets or workouts for that matter. There is no time off to allow "adaptive energies" to do their magic. Nevertheless, the soleus will double in size and weight within days. The muscle literally grows and adapts to the new "environment" while being continually loaded. Now I'm not suggesting that people have this done to get their stubborn calves to grow, but it does illustrate an important point. Which is - the muscle can adapt while it is being loaded, or trained. The tissue does not necessarily need time off. The central nervous system, on the other hand, does need time off. The amount of time off it needs depends on how much "fatigue" was induced.
thats my point its not the muscle thats overtrained it is the CNS:rolleyes:
 
doing 10 sets of 10 reps of bench is not overtraining
doing 10 sets of 10 reps of bench every day is overtraining.
Overtraining is not about how much you workout but about how little you rest. and it develoupes over time. If you do an extra set on day it doesnt mean you will be overtraining.
 
I can simplify the answer: you do NOT grow while you're in the gym. You grow while you recover. Your muscles...they can only take so much abuse, and the more abuse they take, the longer they take to recover.

its also shown that muscles start to de-train after just 48 hours of non-use (in terms of not lifting heavy stuff with them).

so if you thrash your muscles, and then can't lift for 5 days because they are sore...you've gone up to 3 days in a de-training phase. you won't make good gains in size or stength doing that.

a higher frequency...2-3 times per week working the same muscle group, at the correct volume (sets per session) will always, always give better results.

infrequent use of 'over training' principles can be useful in moving past sticking points...but its considered 'advanced' in my opinion.
 
Karky said:
doing 10 sets of 10 reps of bench is not overtraining
doing 10 sets of 10 reps of bench every day is overtraining.
Overtraining is not about how much you workout but about how little you rest. and it develoupes over time. If you do an extra set on day it doesnt mean you will be overtraining.
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Agreed, which I said. The debate is where the overtraining stems from or rather, where are you overtrained.
 
malkore said:
I can simplify the answer: you do NOT grow while you're in the gym. You grow while you recover. Your muscles...they can only take so much abuse, and the more abuse they take, the longer they take to recover.

its also shown that muscles start to de-train after just 48 hours of non-use (in terms of not lifting heavy stuff with them).

so if you thrash your muscles, and then can't lift for 5 days because they are sore...you've gone up to 3 days in a de-training phase. you won't make good gains in size or stength doing that.

a higher frequency...2-3 times per week working the same muscle group, at the correct volume (sets per session) will always, always give better results.

infrequent use of 'over training' principles can be useful in moving past sticking points...but its considered 'advanced' in my opinion.
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Agreed with this too.
 
I agree with some of these factors. I do believe you can overtrain a certain part of the system before you actually overtrain a muscle.
For instance:
An athlete (say a sprinter) will do sprints on a daily basis, which is tremedous amount of force/power on the legs. That same athlete may do a "super leg" routine twice a week (while still drilling with sprints). Has he/she overtrained the legs??

Here is an example for average people:
A person does full body day (bench,squats,pullups) Day1 at 90% max low reps. Next day does farmer's walks, plyo jumps and squat thrust at 30%max
Third day comes in (dbdeadlift,standing cable pulldown, db pushpress) at 70% max.
I have indeed used all the muscles again each day.....is this to be considered overtraining??

One thing that has been said in this forum over and over again is RECOVERY (all forms of it including nutrition) will play a major role in someones ability to handle workouts. I would also add that the level a person is at and how well a routine has allowed that person to adhere to the SAID principle will play an equally huge role.
 
trainerty said:
I agree with some of these factors. I do believe you can overtrain a certain part of the system before you actually overtrain a muscle.
For instance:
An athlete (say a sprinter) will do sprints on a daily basis, which is tremedous amount of force/power on the legs. That same athlete may do a "super leg" routine twice a week (while still drilling with sprints). Has he/she overtrained the legs??

Here is an example for average people:
A person does full body day (bench,squats,pullups) Day1 at 90% max low reps. Next day does farmer's walks, plyo jumps and squat thrust at 30%max
Third day comes in (dbdeadlift,standing cable pulldown, db pushpress) at 70% max.
I have indeed used all the muscles again each day.....is this to be considered overtraining??

One thing that has been said in this forum over and over again is RECOVERY (all forms of it including nutrition) will play a major role in someones ability to handle workouts. I would also add that the level a person is at and how well a routine has allowed that person to adhere to the SAID principle will play an equally huge role.
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Haha, I agree with this too. I am not debating that overtraining exists or not. I am just saying that it is not only real in the CNS, but the musculature as well. I also know/believe that overtraining is a phenomenon which will be triggered at different points for each of us uniquely. It depends on a host of variables (program, rest, nutrition, physiology, etc).
 
If you're overtraining a muscle or muscle group, you won't make gains and may lose strength. If you're overtraining the nervous system, you'll feel irritable and have a hard time sleeping. That's how I distinguish between the two. I overtrained my CNS a couple months ago, and I new it as soon as I tried to go to sleep that night :confused: :eek: :( .
 
You will lose strength when your CNS is overtrained as well. The CNS is the origin of action potentials that lead to muscle contractions.
 
Oh for sure, I can just tell the difference between the two by the sleepless nights, irritability, and one of those lousy workouts where your having an overall tough time with it as opposed to having a tough time with just a single muscle group. This generally occurs after I have a really "good" energetic workout and push just a little to hard.
 
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At the central level (brain) there's not much difference between neural (central) and muscular (peripheral) overtraining.

Both require long-term exposure to heavy stressors and both are mediated by the systemic cytokine response. It can and does happen in both places, depending on the training, though for strength athletes it's a lot more common to see in the CNS.
 
stroutman81 said:
I am just saying that it is not only real in the CNS, but the musculature as well. I also know/believe that overtraining is a phenomenon which will be triggered at different points for each of us uniquely. It depends on a host of variables (program, rest, nutrition, physiology, etc).
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I agree with all of that :)


overtraining just in one session is a lot differently from consistently overtraining over a period of weeks. The former can be called a 'strategy' for breaking plateaus, while the latter is just counter-productive...usually a product "more is better/no pain no gain" mentality

humans are organic machines....the intensity in which we exert ourselves is directly relational to the amount of rest needed...unlike a combustion machine, which simply has to cool down for 15 mins before being run again.
 
PMDilly said:
At the central level (brain) there's not much difference between neural (central) and muscular (peripheral) overtraining.

Both require long-term exposure to heavy stressors and both are mediated by the systemic cytokine response. It can and does happen in both places, depending on the training, though for strength athletes it's a lot more common to see in the CNS.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I strength train, and it usually happens during a period where I'm seeing good gains and have lots of energy and start pushing the weight and intensity up. More enthusiasm than anything LOL! You really have to exercise restraint and listen to your body during these periods.
 
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