Hey guys, I just had a few questions I wanted to ask. I currently weight 280, and im down from 310. I've been doing 45-50 mins of cardio a day on an elyptical machine and eating healthy. I tried the HIIT program out yesterday and today, and it feels pretty good. I did 20 second sprint, 1 min rest, etc.. Now my question is. Since im so high up in weight should i even bother about doing weight training yet? or should i focus on getting the weight off with HIIT and than incorporate weight training later. I tried doing cardo 4 times a week, and weight lift the other 3. But i wasnt really seeing any muscle results cause of all the excess fat. What do you guys think? I also wanted to know about weightlifting and cardio in the same day. I hear that it shouldnt be done on the same day due to needing more calores for muscle gain etc.. Any answers or thoughts are much appreciated. Thanks!
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Weight lifting and cardio.
- Thread starter staind
- Start date
If you have significant fat to loose, you probably can work under slightly different rules than the average joe, so you don't need excess calories to build muscle. I would definately recommend adding 3 days a week of full body weight training to your routine. Remember, more muscle helps burn more calories (by increasing your BMR) and proper weight training improves hormone levels which trigger fat reduction and muscle building. A proper HIIT session only last 20 minutes and only needs to be done 2-3 times per week to result in maximum benefit. Remember the goal of HIIT and weight training is not to burn calories while you are doing it, but to increase the number of calories your body burns throughout the remainder of the day when you are recovering.
You aren't seeing any muscle results because you are losing weight, you can't lose weight and gain muscle at the same time, just get that out of your head. You want to use resistance training in addition to your cardio to maintain your muscle while you lose the weight, then you can focus on gaining muscle.
Staind, yes you should lift in addition to the cardio and clean diet. It will help you preserve or gain lean mass while dropping the bodyfat. Don't do HIIT 4 or 5 days a week. 2-3 days a week is plenty. You can do some light cardio on the days in between if you want. If you're going to do a full body routine then your lifting shouldl be done at least 4 hours apart from your HIIT. Either that or on the days in between.
Don't count on seeing a lot of muscle gains at first because a) there is still a significant amount of fat covering the muscle and b) the first gains in strength from lifting come primarily from adaptions in your nervous system, not muscular size increases. So you will get stronger before you get bigger. You probably wont see any size difference for a couple months. But stick with it and they will come.
Actually you can. I've done it. I've trained other people that have done it. It's just more difficult for experienced trainees than separating goals into bulking/cutting cycles. And he can DEFINITELY do it since it seems he's new to lifting.
Don't count on seeing a lot of muscle gains at first because a) there is still a significant amount of fat covering the muscle and b) the first gains in strength from lifting come primarily from adaptions in your nervous system, not muscular size increases. So you will get stronger before you get bigger. You probably wont see any size difference for a couple months. But stick with it and they will come.
You aren't seeing any muscle results because you are losing weight, you can't lose weight and gain muscle at the same time, just get that out of your head. You want to use resistance training in addition to your cardio to maintain your muscle while you lose the weight, then you can focus on gaining muscle.
Actually you can. I've done it. I've trained other people that have done it. It's just more difficult for experienced trainees than separating goals into bulking/cutting cycles. And he can DEFINITELY do it since it seems he's new to lifting.
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If you are a ACE certified trainer can you please explain the science behind this miricle that you speak of?
Its just not a good idea to convince someone somewhat new to lifting that he will be able to gian muscle and lose weight at the same time becaus its not fiesable.
Please explain so we can all lose fat and gain muscle.
Its just not a good idea to convince someone somewhat new to lifting that he will be able to gian muscle and lose weight at the same time becaus its not fiesable.
Please explain so we can all lose fat and gain muscle.
If you are a ACE certified trainer can you please explain the science behind this miricle that you speak of?
Its just not a good idea to convince someone somewhat new to lifting that he will be able to gian muscle and lose weight at the same time becaus its not fiesable.
Please explain so we can all lose fat and gain muscle.
First the ACE certification doesn't mean much. It didn't even teach me anything I didn't already know. The NSCA-CPT is a much better certification.
Second, It's no miracle. I don't even need to go into any in depth science to answer your question. Your body is constantly going through a tearing down and rebuilding process. Go take 1 exercise physiology course and you'll see that. The body doesn't just look at caloric surpluses and deficits at the end of the day, week or month and go "well, we can't build this week boys, there just aren't enough blocks". It's perfectly conceivable for the body to be doing more to cut bodyfat at one point during a day or week and then doing more to build lean tissue at another point where at the end of, say a month, the body has a net increase in lean tissue while at the same time a loss in bodyfat. The fact is, the body doesn't have to build/tear down lean tissue and store/burn fat at an equal rate to each other, therefore it is possible.
Like I said, I've done it. I've had clients that have done it. And I've seen others do it in person and on the net. I'm far from being alone in thinking this either. Every one of my kinesiology professors agreed. So do others like John Berardi over at t-mag. And while it does get increasingly more difficult as someone puts on significant muscle and drops to a lower bodyfat % it is still possible for the majority of trainees. It's just easier to do bulks and cuts. But it is definitely not hard for anyone to accomplish both simultaneously if they are a) a new trainee b) an experienced lifter coming out of a period of being detrained or c) have a high bodyfat %.
The human body is a pretty capable machine. It's not some stupid biological oaf that's not capable of chewing bubble gum and walking at the same time.
Here are some simple links to examples from studies from over at exrx.net:
Resistance Weight Training During Caloric Restriction Enhances Lean Body Weight Maintenance.
Effect of Diet and Exercise on Weight Loss and Body Composition of Adult Women
Resistance Weight Training With Endurance Training Enhances Fat Loss
The best argument you could put together against these is that the gains in lean tissue are attributable solely to increases in glycogen stores. However there are counters to that argument as well.
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So in your philosophy, If i bulk for 2 weeks and then cut for 2 weeks, you can consider 4 weeks to be the evaluation time period and therefore I have accomplished both at the same time. To me you are using short increments of cutting and bulking as smoke and mirrors, bottom line.
I bet that your trainees could have accomplished the same result but cutting first and then bulking in less time, I do not believe that there is a viable argument against that.
I bet that your trainees could have accomplished the same result but cutting first and then bulking in less time, I do not believe that there is a viable argument against that.
Thanks a lot Prometheus, you've been a lot of help. When i was in 10th grade i took weight lifting for a year, and havent done much until the last few months. I had gotten up to 3 sets of 10 of 180lbs, max being around 235 on the bench. But that was a few years back heh. On the days im not doing cardio, you think I should do High reps lower weight? I would probably do bench first, like 135, 3 sets of 15. and then bi's and tri's. Basically, im trying to get a concrete schedule down, I have no prob sticking to it, as long as its correct.
I was thinking. MON / WED / FRI HIIT for 20 mins, 20 second sprint, followed by 1 min of walking (with warmups and stretching of course)
Then TUES / THURS / SAT weight lifting. and maybe just some general low intensity 30-40 min cardio on sunday. How do you think that would work out? Thanks.
I was thinking. MON / WED / FRI HIIT for 20 mins, 20 second sprint, followed by 1 min of walking (with warmups and stretching of course)
Then TUES / THURS / SAT weight lifting. and maybe just some general low intensity 30-40 min cardio on sunday. How do you think that would work out? Thanks.
So in your philosophy, If i bulk for 2 weeks and then cut for 2 weeks, you can consider 4 weeks to be the evaluation time period and therefore I have accomplished both at the same time. To me you are using short increments of cutting and bulking as smoke and mirrors, bottom line.
I bet that your trainees could have accomplished the same result but cutting first and then bulking in less time, I do not believe that there is a viable argument against that.
It's not smoke and mirrors at all. You just don't have a good counter argument. If you are defining "at the same time" as in one second in the human body, I would say you are likely right (but no one would care about one specific second anyway). If you are defining "at the same time" as a period of even day (let alone weeks or months), I would strongly disagree with you. Especially if one of the three conditions I mentioned above is met. The latter definition is what nearly EVERYONE means when they say "at the same time". Do you really think the OP cares about a period of seconds? It's far more likely he cares about about a longer increment of time. A few seconds during the recovery process doesn't matter because the processes related to muscle gain/fat loss can shift as soon as you down your next meal.
Explain how what I said is untrue. Explain how your definition of "at the same time" is more applicable to what people mean when they use that statement.
The only argument you have is assumptions. There isn't any added benefit to separating the goals for a new trainee. That WAS how I did it before I studied more and switched to doing both simultaneously and it didn't work any better for the new trainee. If we were talking about an advanced lifter I'd say for most people bulking/cutting is an easier way to go. That is not the case with new trainees.
Thanks a lot Prometheus, you've been a lot of help. When i was in 10th grade i took weight lifting for a year, and havent done much until the last few months. I had gotten up to 3 sets of 10 of 180lbs, max being around 235 on the bench. But that was a few years back heh. On the days im not doing cardio, you think I should do High reps lower weight? I would probably do bench first, like 135, 3 sets of 15. and then bi's and tri's. Basically, im trying to get a concrete schedule down, I have no prob sticking to it, as long as its correct.
I was thinking. MON / WED / FRI HIIT for 20 mins, 20 second sprint, followed by 1 min of walking (with warmups and stretching of course)
Then TUES / THURS / SAT weight lifting. and maybe just some general low intensity 30-40 min cardio on sunday. How do you think that would work out? Thanks.
I think it could work fine but it depends what kind of shape your in. Just watch yourself on the HIIT. Try to push yourself a little but don't try to do too much too soon and you'll be fine. You have to be objective with yourself. For the low intensity cardio just do something like walking. For lifting this is what I would do:
- Start with a set x rep combo of 3 x 12-15 (rest interval of 60 seconds) for a month or so with weights you can barely complete that # of reps with. There's another good way to get back into it with like a 5 x 5 scheme but I'm leaving in a minute so I wont have time to explain it until late tomorrow. This way is a simple way to get back into it though. After about a month you can start droppping the reps and increasing the weight.
- Focus on compound movements. There should be few (if any) isolation exercises in your routine at first. So for legs exercises like squats, lunges, deadlifts. For back - barbell rows, dumbbell rows, pullups (or lat pulldowns). For chest - bench press (barbell or dumbbell), incline press, dips. Shoulders - overhead presses (bar or dumbbells). For abs just do crunches for now. Just doing one exercise for each muscle group each time you lift will work fine for now.
To lose fat, what do you have to do? You have to do lots of cardio, eat a low carb/low fat/lower calorie diet, and of course, lift weights. To gain muscle, what do you have to do? Do little or no cardio, eat a high calorie/higher carb/higher fat diet, and again, lift weights. Did you notice something there? Yup, they are complete opposites. Trying to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time would be like trying to sit and stand at the same time. It just can't be done. This is why most people who are trying to do both at the same time see no results and give up. So, then how can it be done? How can you lose fat and gain muscle if you can't do both at the same time? Simple, you don't do them at the same time. You do them in phases.
I call the muscle gaining, weight gaining, size and strength gaining phase the "bulking up phase." And I call the fat loss phase the "cutting up phase." The bulking up phase is the phase where my diet is high in calories, carbs, protein, and a little fat here and there (but only good fat of course, no fried food or potato chips or anything) and I do no cardio.
But then it comes time for the cutting phase. During this phase, I will greatly lower my carb intake, slightly increase my protein intake, and my fat intake (which only really comes from fish, lean meats, and nuts) will stay about the same. I will also start doing cardio, about 30 mins a day, 3 days a week. Also, my weightlifting workout will stay exactly the same as it was during my bulking phase. The only difference will be that the weights I was able to lift during the bulking phase will start to slightly decrease during the cutting phase. Why? Because my body weight is getting a little lower, and therefore I am losing some strength. My goal during this phase is to lower my bodyfat and lose all of the fat that I gained during my bulking phase.
This has been discussed many times and most people will suggest that you will make the most progress by concentrating on one goal at a time. You might see a quick result at first if your body is used to doing nothing, but it will not last. Look around the forum:
http://www.fitness.com/forum/weight...muscle-gain-weight-loss-19117.html#post141006
http://www.fitness.com/forum/supple...tml?highlight=lose+fat+gain+muscle#post135262
http://www.fitness.com/forum/supple...tml?highlight=lose+fat+gain+muscle#post135323
http://www.fitness.com/forum/weight...tml?highlight=lose+fat+gain+muscle#post133037
http://www.fitness.com/forum/weight...tml?highlight=lose+fat+gain+muscle#post129996
I call the muscle gaining, weight gaining, size and strength gaining phase the "bulking up phase." And I call the fat loss phase the "cutting up phase." The bulking up phase is the phase where my diet is high in calories, carbs, protein, and a little fat here and there (but only good fat of course, no fried food or potato chips or anything) and I do no cardio.
But then it comes time for the cutting phase. During this phase, I will greatly lower my carb intake, slightly increase my protein intake, and my fat intake (which only really comes from fish, lean meats, and nuts) will stay about the same. I will also start doing cardio, about 30 mins a day, 3 days a week. Also, my weightlifting workout will stay exactly the same as it was during my bulking phase. The only difference will be that the weights I was able to lift during the bulking phase will start to slightly decrease during the cutting phase. Why? Because my body weight is getting a little lower, and therefore I am losing some strength. My goal during this phase is to lower my bodyfat and lose all of the fat that I gained during my bulking phase.
This has been discussed many times and most people will suggest that you will make the most progress by concentrating on one goal at a time. You might see a quick result at first if your body is used to doing nothing, but it will not last. Look around the forum:
http://www.fitness.com/forum/weight...muscle-gain-weight-loss-19117.html#post141006
http://www.fitness.com/forum/supple...tml?highlight=lose+fat+gain+muscle#post135262
http://www.fitness.com/forum/supple...tml?highlight=lose+fat+gain+muscle#post135323
http://www.fitness.com/forum/weight...tml?highlight=lose+fat+gain+muscle#post133037
http://www.fitness.com/forum/weight...tml?highlight=lose+fat+gain+muscle#post129996
To lose fat, what do you have to do? You have to do lots of cardio, eat a low carb/low fat/lower calorie diet, and of course, lift weights.
You don't have to do cardio to lose fat. Sure it helps. But I've known many people that have dropped fat simply by eating clean just below maintenance and lifting weights (with little to no cardio). You don't have to eat a low carb diet either. The research is clear on that. Eating a low carb diet is ONE way to help lose weight, it's not the only one.
To gain muscle, what do you have to do? Do little or no cardio, eat a high calorie/higher carb/higher fat diet, and again, lift weights.
Again, I've seen many people gain muscle while doing plenty of cardio. Obviously, if they were doing like an hour of cardio everyday it would be far more difficult. But someone could do cardio like, say running 3 miles a day and still gain muscle if they are eating enough to compensate for the cardio as well.
Did you notice something there? Yup, they are complete opposites.
Ya, your examples are complete opposites and they aren't necessary paradigms to achieve either of the goals you stated.
Trying to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time would be like trying to sit and stand at the same time. It just can't be done.
Have you taken just one basic physiology course? If you did you'd learn just how wrong you are. Like I said, if you were talking a period of seconds, I'd agree. But over the course of a day the body is capable of changing emphasis and handling many tasks. Your body is smarter than you are.
This is why most people who are trying to do both at the same time see no results and give up. So, then how can it be done? How can you lose fat and gain muscle if you can't do both at the same time? Simple, you don't do them at the same time. You do them in phases.
Check out the graphs and the study abstracts to the links I show you and then say it cant be done. You cant, because its been done many times. It's been tested in the lab and its been done in the gym.
I call the muscle gaining, weight gaining, size and strength gaining phase the "bulking up phase." And I call the fat loss phase the "cutting up phase." The bulking up phase is the phase where my diet is high in calories, carbs, protein, and a little fat here and there (but only good fat of course, no fried food or potato chips or anything) and I do no cardio.
But then it comes time for the cutting phase. During this phase, I will greatly lower my carb intake, slightly increase my protein intake, and my fat intake (which only really comes from fish, lean meats, and nuts) will stay about the same. I will also start doing cardio, about 30 mins a day, 3 days a week. Also, my weightlifting workout will stay exactly the same as it was during my bulking phase. The only difference will be that the weights I was able to lift during the bulking phase will start to slightly decrease during the cutting phase. Why? Because my body weight is getting a little lower, and therefore I am losing some strength. My goal during this phase is to lower my bodyfat and lose all of the fat that I gained during my bulking phase.
Ya, I'm aware of bulking/cutting phases. I've done them. I' have a good bit of experience training myself and others. I've had buddies go to Marine boot camp and come back with more muscle and less fat. Do you think they did a bulking/cutting phase there?
[/quote]This has been discussed many times and most people will suggest that you will make the most progress by concentrating on one goal at a time. You might see a quick result at first if your body is used to doing nothing, but it will not last. Look around the forum:
http://www.fitness.com/forum/weight...muscle-gain-weight-loss-19117.html#post141006
http://www.fitness.com/forum/supple...tml?highlight=lose+fat+gain+muscle#post135262
http://www.fitness.com/forum/supple...tml?highlight=lose+fat+gain+muscle#post135323
http://www.fitness.com/forum/weight...tml?highlight=lose+fat+gain+muscle#post133037
http://www.fitness.com/forum/weight...tml?highlight=lose+fat+gain+muscle#post129996
Seen them. There are plenty of bodybuilding beliefs floating around the internet. Just because it's said on a message board doesn't make it true. Do I care what some people on the internet believe when plenty of experts and my own experience say its incorrect? Not really. Like I said in my previous post, if someone is an experienced lifter it does usually work better to do bulks and cuts to gain muscle and drop bodyfat but it's rarely a must. For a new trainee who's been lifting for about 6 months or less it's not going to make a difference. But if you want to keep thinking that go ahead. It's not going to negatively impact me so I'm not gonna waste any more time trying to convince you.
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Thanks a lot prometheus. I'd like to lose the weight as fast as possible. Would it be more beneficial to do HIIT 3 times a week, and LISS the other 4 for around 30 mins or so and then start lifting when i get a good bit of the weight off? Or you think i should do what i talked about earlier of doing HIIT 3 times a week and lift the other 4? Thanks..
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I have already registered for my last semester of classes in mechanical engineering so I will not have time to study physiology.
And as far as your Marine Boot camp example, I question whether or not you really have a friend that was a Marine because you are sadly mistaken; trust me I served 4 years in the Marine Corps. It is nearly the quintessential cutting phase!
There were 103 people in my platoon at the beginning and 78 at the end, not 1 gained any weight. EVERYONE lost weight, mostly fat (which might reveal muscle underneath) but also some of the more muscular guys lost muscle because we were on a caloric deficit for 3 months.
I weighed 130 lbs when I went to boot camp and 121 when I got out. I had very little fat when I went but none when I got out, but I didn’t gain much muscle, tighten up sure but gain no. However, over the next 4 years I gained 50lbs buy bulking and cutting.
I can make an engine run with a hamster, and I can say ‘see it works’, but it’s the efficiency that becomes the problem. Perhaps you and your genetically gifted trainees were able to accomplish these goals efficiently but that’s not the case for most of us.
You keep saying that ‘it’s possible’, it’s possible for me to walk 100 miles but not necessarily the best idea. The fastest way for most people to lose fat and gain muscle is to concentrate on one goal at a time.
I believe that you know that but you are so concerned with proving that it is possible that you forgot that someone is having trouble seeing muscular gains while losing weight and you are telling him that he should be gaining muscle; although you never really mention the specifics about eating/exercising to accomplish this.
I’m not here to argue, I have just have seen a lot of people go nowhere trying to gain muscle and lose fat.
And as far as your Marine Boot camp example, I question whether or not you really have a friend that was a Marine because you are sadly mistaken; trust me I served 4 years in the Marine Corps. It is nearly the quintessential cutting phase!
There were 103 people in my platoon at the beginning and 78 at the end, not 1 gained any weight. EVERYONE lost weight, mostly fat (which might reveal muscle underneath) but also some of the more muscular guys lost muscle because we were on a caloric deficit for 3 months.
I weighed 130 lbs when I went to boot camp and 121 when I got out. I had very little fat when I went but none when I got out, but I didn’t gain much muscle, tighten up sure but gain no. However, over the next 4 years I gained 50lbs buy bulking and cutting.
I can make an engine run with a hamster, and I can say ‘see it works’, but it’s the efficiency that becomes the problem. Perhaps you and your genetically gifted trainees were able to accomplish these goals efficiently but that’s not the case for most of us.
You keep saying that ‘it’s possible’, it’s possible for me to walk 100 miles but not necessarily the best idea. The fastest way for most people to lose fat and gain muscle is to concentrate on one goal at a time.
I believe that you know that but you are so concerned with proving that it is possible that you forgot that someone is having trouble seeing muscular gains while losing weight and you are telling him that he should be gaining muscle; although you never really mention the specifics about eating/exercising to accomplish this.
I’m not here to argue, I have just have seen a lot of people go nowhere trying to gain muscle and lose fat.
Thanks a lot prometheus. I'd like to lose the weight as fast as possible. Would it be more beneficial to do HIIT 3 times a week, and LISS the other 4 for around 30 mins or so and then start lifting when i get a good bit of the weight off? Or you think i should do what i talked about earlier of doing HIIT 3 times a week and lift the other 4? Thanks..
I would start with doing HIIT twice a week and your 30 min LISS cardio on the other days. If you want to remove a day of LISS and add a 3rd HIIT after a few weeks go ahead. But you should definitely lift weights. That should always be part of a fat loss program because you can lose lean tissue when you're dieting, especially if the diet is severely restrictive in calories. Lifting weights will at the very least minimize the loss of lean tissue and in many cases even help you build lean tissue while your dieting if its done right. Since you haven't worked out in years and from the sound of it have a significant amount of bodyfat to lose you shouldn't have trouble with that. Don't try to lose too much too fast. I know its tempting but it can be counterproductive. Remember, don't go overboard. Your body can handle large workloads but it needs to build up to it gradually. Did you have your bodyfat% checked?
No i haven't gotten my body fat% checked. I've also read a lot about not doing cardio and weight lifting in the same days because you need more calories to gain muscle and less on fat loss. But separating them by day would be fine.
Ideally you should do your lifting and cardio at separate times of the day but it's not necessary to do them on separate days. It doesn't hurt though. You'll be able to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time without much trouble since you're new to exercise and have a high bodyfat %. As ones bodyfat gets lower and their amount of lean muscle gets higher it gets more difficult and genetics also plays a role. But there's no reason for you to worry about that now. If you just focus on dropping the bodyfat at a safe pace of about 1% a week or less you'll see.
Ok cool. Im just trying to get a ballpark idea of the best way to have my workout setup.
I like the idea of MON WED FRI for HIIT
And TUES THUR SUN for weight lifting, cause i play football on saturdays for about 4 hours. So do you think that would work out beneficially to me? Doing the HIIT is no problem, but looking at my weight you think it would be. I use to do 50 mins of LISS every single day. But i read about HIIT and how its so good for the metabolism. So it basically covers the day afterwords almost. And the same healthy diet each day.
I like the idea of MON WED FRI for HIIT
And TUES THUR SUN for weight lifting, cause i play football on saturdays for about 4 hours. So do you think that would work out beneficially to me? Doing the HIIT is no problem, but looking at my weight you think it would be. I use to do 50 mins of LISS every single day. But i read about HIIT and how its so good for the metabolism. So it basically covers the day afterwords almost. And the same healthy diet each day.