Want to cut from 15% to 10% or at just get a flat stomach.

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FewMoreKG

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Hey there!

I'm around 10%-13% body fat according to calipers and the US Navy body fat measurement calculator thing but what I think what's more likely is that I'm around 15%-16%. I'm 19, 5ft6, 141lbs male, my BMR is around 1600 while my TDEE is around 1900.

I'm trying to get more toned but due to my small amount of muscle mass I'm more just trying to get my stomach flat, I simply feel really uncomfortable being able to grab as much fat as I can and hate the "soft" look I have. To achieve this goal I've been eating 1700 calories a day (110g-140g of protein a day and filling the rest with 65% carbs and 35% fats), lifting weights for around an hour every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday, and doing 20 minutes of LISS a day to burn 200 calories daily.

I've been doing this for about 2 weeks now and I only appear to have lost half a KG and I'm not even getting any stronger at the gym (apparently because I'm a beginner this should be happening despite my caloric deficit), in fact I appear to have lost strength since when I first started and my nutrition was awful (mainly carbs and fats, very little protein).

I intend to keep going until I get it right but it is de-motivating to have lost as little fat as I have so far and not gained any strength at all despite meticulously keeping up good nutrition and a very consistent workout routine. Any ideas where I might be going wrong - am I not giving it long enough? Am I just over-thinking it?
 
Based on 16% bodyfat your maintenance calories are 1684 without the exercise, your needed protein is 118 grams so 140 is more than needed but certainly ok. I would recommend a low carb diet rather than the high carb your currently eating.

your loss is only from the exercise your doing because you have not got the calorie deficit you thought you had combined with the high carbs.

HIIT is a better option than your LISS, HIIT increases calorie burn outside of the exercise period itself and is good for maintaining muscle.

Even in calorie deficit you can get stronger, building size on the other hand, will only happen in deficit if you are both a newbie and have a lot of fat to loose, as a newbie with reasonable fat levels you are not going to build size.

What does your training program look like ?
 
Should I try to eat 1600 calories instead? Losing some protein won't be so bad as 18g of my protein actually comes from the two wholemeal bread sandwiches I'd been eating a day (9g of protein per 2 slices of wholemeal bread). I'd then be eating 80g of carbs a day if I cut out those wholemeal sandwiches, but I could cut it down to 20g-30g of carbs a day if I cut out the two wholemeal tortillas I have for dinner as well but that would also cut me down to about 90g of protein a day.

So if HIIT is better should I do that 5-7 times a week rather than LISS? I know the whole thing about it getting in the way of recovery but my muscles are literally never sore after a workout despite the fact I work them to fatigue every time.

Ah, okay that makes sense about not building size, but I'm still not gaining any strength, or at least I'm gaining it very slowly. Is that still normal?

This is my training program:

A: Chest/Abs

Dumbbell Bench Press (3 x 10-12)
Incline Dumbbell Bench Press (4 x 12)
Chest Flyes (4 x 12)
Cable Crossovers (4 x 12)

Planks (3 x to failure)
Side Planks (3 x to failure)
Hanging Leg Raises (3 x 12)

B: Back/Abs

Lat Pulldowns (3 x 10)
Deadlifts (3 x 6-8)
Pullups/Chinups (3 x to failure)
Dumbbell Rows (4 x 12) (1 set = 6 reps per arm)

Planks (3 x to failure)
Side Planks (3 x to failure)
Hanging Leg Raises (3 x 12)

C: Shoulders/Abs

Overhead Barbell Press (3 x 8-10)
Dumbbell Lateral Raises (4 x 12)
Dumbbell Front Raises (4 x 12)
Bent-Over Barbell Rows (4 x 12)

Planks (3 x to failure)
Side Planks (3 x to failure, both sides)
Hanging Leg Raises (3 x 12)

D: Arms/Legs

Alternating Dumbbell Curls (4 x 12) (1 set = 6 reps per arm)
Wrist Curls (4 x 12)
Skull Crushers (4 x 12)
Tricep Dips (4 x 12)

Planks (3 x to failure)
Side Planks (3 x to failure)
Hanging Leg Raises (3 x 12)

A B X C D X X
 
FewMoreKG said:
Should I try to eat 1600 calories instead? Losing some protein won't be so bad as 18g of my protein actually comes from the two wholemeal bread sandwiches I'd been eating a day (9g of protein per 2 slices of wholemeal bread). I'd then be eating 80g of carbs a day if I cut out those wholemeal sandwiches, but I could cut it down to 20g-30g of carbs a day if I cut out the two wholemeal tortillas I have for dinner as well but that would also cut me down to about 90g of protein a day.
Click to expand...

Small changes are good, the bigger the deficit, the more at risk of muscle loss, so cutting out a bit at a time gives you room to cut further when weight loss slows.
FewMoreKG said:
So if HIIT is better should I do that 5-7 times a week rather than LISS? I know the whole thing about it getting in the way of recovery but my muscles are literally never sore after a workout despite the fact I work them to fatigue every time.
Click to expand...

3 times per week is plenty for HIIT, when done correctly you will certainly feel it.

FewMoreKG said:
Ah, okay that makes sense about not building size, but I'm still not gaining any strength, or at least I'm gaining it very slowly. Is that still normal?
Click to expand...

It takes time to build strength, while new lifter will build strength faster than an experienced lifter, you should not expect gains every week.

now looking at your program, it is not a strength program, it has far too many assistance exercises and way too many reps per set. Ideally you should be able to complete a training session in around an hour doing 3-5 exercises when doing a split. Your ab work is excessive and while great for endurance it is not building strength, or size (due to calorie deficit).

When building strength and with good exercise selection you do not need a day dedicated to shoulders unless you are doing exercises dedicated to maintaining good shoulder health targeting the following muscles (supraspinatus, infraspinatis, teres minor and your serratus) all of which do not require a lot of weight to train them however keeping these muscle in good condition will help prevent major shoulder problems long into the future.

As an example, this is my training program at the moment without the rep scheme as it changes as the 3 month program progresses, as do the planned weights lifted based on % of 1 rm.

Day 1

Heavy paused bench press (chest, anterior delts, triceps, erector spinae (back), glutes and biceps) I BB bench as a competitive lifter however DB bench is a little better for targeting chest.
Close grip bench (triceps, pecs, anterior delts, biceps)
Lying tricep extensions (triceps, Deltoid Anterior, Pecs, Latissimus Dorsi, Teres Major, Deltoid, Posterior, Wrist Flexors) my extensions are modified to only target the medial and lateral heads of the tricep as the long head gets plenty of work in the previous exercises. Skull crushers are fine if long head needs targeting.

Day 2 Rest

Day 3

Heavy Squat (Quadriceps, Gluteus Maximus, Adductor Magnus, Soleus, Hamstrings, Gastrocnemius, Erector Spinae, Rectus Abdominis, Obliques) when squat is done correctly your abs are hit hard.
Light, speed Deadlift (Gluteus Maximus, Quadriceps, Adductor Magnus, Hamstrings, Soleus, Gastrocnemius, Erector Spinae, Trapezius, Middle, Trapezius, Upper, Levator Scapulae, Rhomboids, Rectus Abdominis, Obliques) speed work is to develop explosive power, also not deadlift is also heavy on the abs if done correctly.
Hamstring Raise(Hamstrings, glutes, Rectus Abdominis, Obliques, Erector Spinae) I am quad dominant done for muscle balance, but again the whole core is worked when the exercise is done correctly.
Seated straight back wide grip Row (Back, General, Trapezius, Middle, Trapezius, Lower, Rhomboids, Latissimus Dorsi, Teres Major, Deltoid, Posterior, Infraspinatus, Teres Minor, Brachialis, Brachioradialis, Pectoralis Major, Sternal, Biceps Brachii, Triceps, Long Head, Erector Spinae, Hamstrings, Gluteus Maximus, Adductor Magnus, Rectus Abdominis, Obliques) a bit more ab work

Day 4 Rest
Day 5 Rest, two days rest needed after squat and deadlift for muscle recovery.

Day 6

Light speed bench, like light deadlift, used to develop explosive power. same muscles as paused bench
Cuban press, ( supraspinatus,infraspinatus, teres minor, Deltoid, Anterior, Pectoralis Major, Clavicular, Triceps Brachii, Deltoid, Lateral, Trapezius, Middle, Trapezius, Lower, Serratus Anterior, Inferior Digitations, Triceps, Long Head, Biceps Brachii, Short Head, Trapezius, Upper, Levator Scapulae) at this stage of the week all parts of the shoulders have been targeted.
Incline serratus press isolation exercise for serratus, important for shoulder health, but for a young man looking to get cut, the zig zag of a well defined serratus is impressive.
Back Extensions (Erector Spinae, Gluteus Maximus, Hamstrings, Adductor Magnus) can be considered a dangerous exercise if not done correctly, working weight up slowly with good form, lower back strength is critical for a competitive lifter, but could be skipped or swapped out for pullups (my 19 year old son does both exercises for competitive lifting and martial arts)

Day 7
Heavy Deadlift
Light Speed squat
Heavy Shrugs (important for developing large traps, forming a good shelf for the bar during squat)

there is two days rest before working the major squat/deadlift muscles again as day 1 of the week is not heavy on these.


rep ranges for strength should be 5-8 for a beginner
 
Trusylver said:
Small changes are good, the bigger the deficit, the more at risk of muscle loss, so cutting out a bit at a time gives you room to cut further when weight loss slows.


3 times per week is plenty for HIIT, when done correctly you will certainly feel it.



It takes time to build strength, while new lifter will build strength faster than an experienced lifter, you should not expect gains every week.

now looking at your program, it is not a strength program, it has far too many assistance exercises and way too many reps per set. Ideally you should be able to complete a training session in around an hour doing 3-5 exercises when doing a split. Your ab work is excessive and while great for endurance it is not building strength, or size (due to calorie deficit).

When building strength and with good exercise selection you do not need a day dedicated to shoulders unless you are doing exercises dedicated to maintaining good shoulder health targeting the following muscles (supraspinatus, infraspinatis, teres minor and your serratus) all of which do not require a lot of weight to train them however keeping these muscle in good condition will help prevent major shoulder problems long into the future.

As an example, this is my training program at the moment without the rep scheme as it changes as the 3 month program progresses, as do the planned weights lifted based on % of 1 rm.

Day 1

Heavy paused bench press (chest, anterior delts, triceps, erector spinae (back), glutes and biceps) I BB bench as a competitive lifter however DB bench is a little better for targeting chest.
Close grip bench (triceps, pecs, anterior delts, biceps)
Lying tricep extensions (triceps, Deltoid Anterior, Pecs, Latissimus Dorsi, Teres Major, Deltoid, Posterior, Wrist Flexors) my extensions are modified to only target the medial and lateral heads of the tricep as the long head gets plenty of work in the previous exercises. Skull crushers are fine if long head needs targeting.

Day 2 Rest

Day 3

Heavy Squat (Quadriceps, Gluteus Maximus, Adductor Magnus, Soleus, Hamstrings, Gastrocnemius, Erector Spinae, Rectus Abdominis, Obliques) when squat is done correctly your abs are hit hard.
Light, speed Deadlift (Gluteus Maximus, Quadriceps, Adductor Magnus, Hamstrings, Soleus, Gastrocnemius, Erector Spinae, Trapezius, Middle, Trapezius, Upper, Levator Scapulae, Rhomboids, Rectus Abdominis, Obliques) speed work is to develop explosive power, also not deadlift is also heavy on the abs if done correctly.
Hamstring Raise(Hamstrings, glutes, Rectus Abdominis, Obliques, Erector Spinae) I am quad dominant done for muscle balance, but again the whole core is worked when the exercise is done correctly.
Seated straight back wide grip Row (Back, General, Trapezius, Middle, Trapezius, Lower, Rhomboids, Latissimus Dorsi, Teres Major, Deltoid, Posterior, Infraspinatus, Teres Minor, Brachialis, Brachioradialis, Pectoralis Major, Sternal, Biceps Brachii, Triceps, Long Head, Erector Spinae, Hamstrings, Gluteus Maximus, Adductor Magnus, Rectus Abdominis, Obliques) a bit more ab work

Day 4 Rest
Day 5 Rest, two days rest needed after squat and deadlift for muscle recovery.

Day 6

Light speed bench, like light deadlift, used to develop explosive power. same muscles as paused bench
Cuban press, ( supraspinatus,infraspinatus, teres minor, Deltoid, Anterior, Pectoralis Major, Clavicular, Triceps Brachii, Deltoid, Lateral, Trapezius, Middle, Trapezius, Lower, Serratus Anterior, Inferior Digitations, Triceps, Long Head, Biceps Brachii, Short Head, Trapezius, Upper, Levator Scapulae) at this stage of the week all parts of the shoulders have been targeted.
Incline serratus press isolation exercise for serratus, important for shoulder health, but for a young man looking to get cut, the zig zag of a well defined serratus is impressive.
Back Extensions (Erector Spinae, Gluteus Maximus, Hamstrings, Adductor Magnus) can be considered a dangerous exercise if not done correctly, working weight up slowly with good form, lower back strength is critical for a competitive lifter, but could be skipped or swapped out for pullups (my 19 year old son does both exercises for competitive lifting and martial arts)

Day 7
Heavy Deadlift
Light Speed squat
Heavy Shrugs (important for developing large traps, forming a good shelf for the bar during squat)

there is two days rest before working the major squat/deadlift muscles again as day 1 of the week is not heavy on these.


rep ranges for strength should be 5-8 for a beginner
Click to expand...


So assuming I drop my carbs to under 60g while eating 1500 calories a day, and change my cardio to three or four 20 minute HIIT sessions a week, the speed of my fat loss should increase right? And I'll keep my muscle mass as long as I eat around 120g of protein and follow your workout routine?

Also your routine, is it good for building mass? I've been told higher reps is better for hypertrophy but then I've also been told you can't train for size, you can only train for strength, and the stronger you get the more mass you'll have so I suppose I'm a little bit confused there. Do you increase your reps for progressive overload then because I was just straight up trying to increase the weight once I could do 12 clean reps for one weight and I wasn't sure if that was the right way to do it or not (I've seen there are a lot of ways to do progressive overload)?

My ideal body is 10%-12% body fat (assuming this will make my body look harder and less soft) while having big shoulders, big chest and big lats in order to give myself that V-taper look (not at the expense of other muscle groups - just these three are my main focus).

Thank you!
 
Training for size is different to training for strength.
A strength program when in calorie surplus will build a little size (increasing the size of muscle fibres) but the increase strength comes from the improved coordination, recruitment and efficiency of the muscle fibres and the firing patterns of the nerves. A hypertrophy program will build a little strength from the increased size of fibres but will not develop the larger increases of strength from improved recruitment.

Hypertrophy needs extra calories (muscles need extra calories to grow in size, but not to improve how well they work) If you look at a lightweight powerlifter, they are very strong, but do not look much different from average in muscle size.

my routine is purely strength, but if done for higher reps will also build size. A bodybuilding program would usually have a a few more exercises targeting under developed (size) areas and targeting other specific muscles more for aesthetics.

yes the lower your fat the less soft you will look, and the bigger your muscles will appear.

13435398_10209575839981528_1767995472041993118_n.jpg


This is my then 17 year old son (he is now 19) this is 8% bodyfat %, he does not train for size and had a weight of 53 kg (116 lb) at 5' 3" in this photo. He now 19 and sits at around 5% (it get hard to measure at low %) and has a stable 59 kg (130 lb) weight, the muscle gain is from a combination of powerlifting (my program mostly) and martial arts for his cardio. I don't have a photo of lat spread or a current physique photo. He does not generally work on hypertrophy or specific aesthetics (he is not a bodybuilder), excess size is detrimental to his martial arts.

FewMoreKG said:
big shoulders, big chest and big lats in order to give myself that V-taper look (not at the expense of other muscle groups - just these three are my main focus).
Click to expand...

After you have cut down your fat levels, then increase calories, increase reps into the hypertrophy range (8-12) and add a couple of extra exercises to target specific areas for the aesthetics, but excess ab exercises will thicken the waist making your lat spread look a lot less impressive for your V taper, the ab definition comes from low bodyfat%
 
Trusylver said:
Training for size is different to training for strength.
A strength program when in calorie surplus will build a little size (increasing the size of muscle fibres) but the increase strength comes from the improved coordination, recruitment and efficiency of the muscle fibres and the firing patterns of the nerves. A hypertrophy program will build a little strength from the increased size of fibres but will not develop the larger increases of strength from improved recruitment.

Hypertrophy needs extra calories (muscles need extra calories to grow in size, but not to improve how well they work) If you look at a lightweight powerlifter, they are very strong, but do not look much different from average in muscle size.

my routine is purely strength, but if done for higher reps will also build size. A bodybuilding program would usually have a a few more exercises targeting under developed (size) areas and targeting other specific muscles more for aesthetics.

yes the lower your fat the less soft you will look, and the bigger your muscles will appear.

13435398_10209575839981528_1767995472041993118_n.jpg


This is my then 17 year old son (he is now 19) this is 8% bodyfat %, he does not train for size and had a weight of 53 kg (116 lb) at 5' 3" in this photo. He now 19 and sits at around 5% (it get hard to measure at low %) and has a stable 59 kg (130 lb) weight, the muscle gain is from a combination of powerlifting (my program mostly) and martial arts for his cardio. I don't have a photo of lat spread or a current physique photo. He does not generally work on hypertrophy or specific aesthetics (he is not a bodybuilder), excess size is detrimental to his martial arts.



After you have cut down your fat levels, then increase calories, increase reps into the hypertrophy range (8-12) and add a couple of extra exercises to target specific areas for the aesthetics, but excess ab exercises will thicken the waist making your lat spread look a lot less impressive for your V taper, the ab definition comes from low bodyfat%
Click to expand...

Okay gotcha, thanks. "So assuming I drop my carbs to under 60g while eating 1500 calories a day, and change my cardio to three or four 20 minute HIIT sessions a week, the speed of my fat loss should increase right? And I'll keep my muscle mass as long as I eat around 120g of protein?"
 
yes bu remember, there is always going to be a little bit of experimenting needed for calorie levels because no matter how good the formula (estimate) there are still individual differences.
 
Trusylver said:
yes bu remember, there is always going to be a little bit of experimenting needed for calorie levels because no matter how good the formula (estimate) there are still individual differences.
Click to expand...

So if my fat loss isn't going fast enough for me I can lower calorie intake/increase my amount of exercise in small increments to see what works best? Is there a point in which I'd have to accept my fat loss is going to take as long as it does, like not going below 1300 calories or something like that? I've heard one of the best ways to retain muscle mass whilst on a diet is to not go any higher than a 20% caloric deficit.
 
You don't want to be loosing faster than around 1kg a week, those with a lot to loose can safely loose at a faster rate, but the lower your fat levels the slower you want to loose.

same goes for calorie increases when you decide it's time to build more size in calorie surplus, if the surplus is too big you will put on more fat than muscle.
 
Trusylver said:
Based on 16% bodyfat your maintenance calories are 1684 without the exercise, your needed protein is 118 grams so 140 is more than needed but certainly ok. I would recommend a low carb diet rather than the high carb your currently eating.

your loss is only from the exercise your doing because you have not got the calorie deficit you thought you had combined with the high carbs.

HIIT is a better option than your LISS, HIIT increases calorie burn outside of the exercise period itself and is good for maintaining muscle.

Even in calorie deficit you can get stronger, building size on the other hand, will only happen in deficit if you are both a newbie and have a lot of fat to loose, as a newbie with reasonable fat levels you are not going to build size.

What does your training program look like ?
Click to expand...

Wait something about what you said just hit me. What do you mean I don't have the calorie deficit I thought I had combined with high carbs? I've certainly been in a deficit for the last 2 weeks and I've lost about a kilogram according to the scales (not that I can actually see it 'nor feel it which is why I came to this forum) so how would high carbs mess that up? I thought as long as I was in a calorie deficit I'd lose fat? I was having 700 calories worth of carbs a day but now I've cut down to between 20 and 60 carbs a day by the way.
 
What I said was that your deficit has been caused by your exercise alone, your food intake was around maintenance. not that you didn't have an overall deficit.

there are several different ways to estimate the calories your body needs (they are all estimates unless measured in a lab) most of the formula are based on total body weight, that weight includes the metabolically inactive fat which it fine for the average person to reach a healthy weight, however the formula I prefer is a little more accurate in that it is calculated on lean body mass.

fat loss is also not as simple calories in / calories out, when you spike your blood glucose, your insulin also spikes and facilitates fat storage. carbohydrate is the biggest trigger for that glucose spike. So choice of carbs is important, Low GI carbs are better than High GI carbs due to the difference in insulin response. Carbs in foods like green vegetables with lots of fibre are better than carbs with almost no fibre. As a bonus for getting the cut appearance, less carbs means less excessive fluid retention, fluid retention contributes to the soft look. Bodybuilder who are on stage or professional photo shoot take it to unhealthy levels, when on show they are dehydrated.


View attachment 26959


meal timing and carbs

the green spikes represent the average meal, those green spikes will be larger for a high carb meal, lower for a low cab meal. the other macros will also produce an insulin response but on a far lower scale. The number of spikes is dependent on the number of meals you have, including snacks. Lots of snacks = lots of insulin spikes and therefore more fat storage. Less meals (Intermittent fasting) means less spikes and less fat storage.

This does not mean that calories don't count, If you have less meals and low carb meals but still eat far too many calories in those meals then you will still have trouble loosing fat.
 
Trusylver said:
What I said was that your deficit has been caused by your exercise alone, your food intake was around maintenance. not that you didn't have an overall deficit.

there are several different ways to estimate the calories your body needs (they are all estimates unless measured in a lab) most of the formula are based on total body weight, that weight includes the metabolically inactive fat which it fine for the average person to reach a healthy weight, however the formula I prefer is a little more accurate in that it is calculated on lean body mass.

fat loss is also not as simple calories in / calories out, when you spike your blood glucose, your insulin also spikes and facilitates fat storage. carbohydrate is the biggest trigger for that glucose spike. So choice of carbs is important, Low GI carbs are better than High GI carbs due to the difference in insulin response. Carbs in foods like green vegetables with lots of fibre are better than carbs with almost no fibre. As a bonus for getting the cut appearance, less carbs means less excessive fluid retention, fluid retention contributes to the soft look. Bodybuilder who are on stage or professional photo shoot take it to unhealthy levels, when on show they are dehydrated.


View attachment 26959


meal timing and carbs

the green spikes represent the average meal, those green spikes will be larger for a high carb meal, lower for a low cab meal. the other macros will also produce an insulin response but on a far lower scale. The number of spikes is dependent on the number of meals you have, including snacks. Lots of snacks = lots of insulin spikes and therefore more fat storage. Less meals (Intermittent fasting) means less spikes and less fat storage.

This does not mean that calories don't count, If you have less meals and low carb meals but still eat far too many calories in those meals then you will still have trouble loosing fat.
Click to expand...

Oh I completely read what you said wrong then. If my TDEE was 1700 calories the whole time then that clearly explains why I haven't been losing fat all that fast lol. I used a bunch of calculators that said it was 1900 though so how did you work it out?
 
Katch-McArdle Formula is used to calculate based on lean mass and I calculated with a sedentary lifestyle. 4 training sessions and 20 minutes of cardio don't change lifestyle factors.
 
FewMoreKG said:
Am I just over-thinking it?
Click to expand...

Wow, okay first off you look great to me, but that aside I want to ask you a few questions about your lifestyle. Do you sit more than you stand? If so, start standing more. Stand and watch tv. It's silly but if you really are wanting to remove the "soft look" you need to do things differently. I like my soft look but I can see what you want, and I know what works with that. Also a lot of core balancing can help burn the fat there, that spot is tricky. My daughter is so skinny but had a little soft area there and wanted a flat belly, she went out and bought herself a motorcycle, and now her waistline is super trim and super flat, because who knew, but riding a motorcycle (Suzuki 750) burns calories and uses a lot of core muscles. She also started a job where she stands up a lot. She lost that soft area super fast! She also incorporated tea with senna in it every night before bed, that too must have helped.
 
Trusylver said:
This is complete rubbish, you cannot spot reduce fat.
Click to expand...

Well the only place my daughter had noticible fat was just like this guy and all she did was what I said and now her belly is flat. I never said it reduced only that spot. Of course her soft look went away all over but that area definitely went flat in the process of building up her core muscles... standing up at a job all day and overall strength from having a motorcycle, and using tea.
 
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