Theory on cutting...

[Roek]

Okay, so cutting is a phase of body building that is feared, at least by me. Lol. And that is due to all the precious muscle lost. The reason the muscle is lost is because the body is on a calorie deficit and the the rest of the energy the body needs for the day is taken from the muscle (by breaking them down) and from fat (by burning it up). So, the goal is to keep the body from taking the neccesary amino acids from the muscles and hindering them. Will taking enough protein to keep the muscle and to provide the body with the amino acids it would have taken from the muscles, do the job and stop the catabolic process?

For example, before a cardio work-out one can take half a protein shake. During the work-out one can fuel themselves with carbohydrates. And after, another small shake can be taken. Plus, to generalize all this, it would mean that one would be consuming more than the usual amount of protein.

To make sure one stays in a deficit in respects to calories, intake of carbohydrates can be restricted to only during work-outs, and protein the rest of the time.

How does it all sound? Is it reasonable? Anyone wanna tweak my so-called theory?

-Roek

 

[malkore]

well, Dr. Berardi sorta agrees with you. he says that strength athletes trying to retain muscle while cutting should consume a 'during workout shake' that contains .4g of carbs and .2g of protein per kilogram of lean muscle mass, mixed into 500ml of water (16.9oz), and sip that during either cardio or weight training.
there's no post workout meal...you simply eat a whole food meal 60 mins after you finish training.

This shake will end up being like, 15g of protein and 30g of carbs for the 'average' male. if you're more muscled you'll adjust it up.

I think my actual shake is 14g protein and 34g of dextrose. when I get home, I knock back creatine in a glass of water to catch the tail end of the insulin spike from the shake.

 

[Roek]

So you actually do this during your cardio work-outs? Does it work well at all?

-Roek

 

[R.Lewis]

as I am bulking I have a 60g glug of dextrose with 25g of protien before the gym, and I also have a 15g of protien and 30g of dextrose in the gym mixed with 1ltr of water.

Out of interest how much water do you drink in the gym?

 

[PMDilly]

Protein needs to be no lower on a cut than 1g/lb of bodyweight.

Focusing on maintenance work (a few sets of 4-6 reps per each big lift, done frequently) will send a biochemical signal that creates a "need" for the muscle, so it's less likely to be cannibalized.

Finally, dieting with a sane deficit (or an insane deficit under the right conditions) will largely spare muscle tissue until you try and force the body to an unnatural state of leanness, which varies for everyone.

 

[buzz]

Protein needs to be no lower on a cut than 1g/lb of bodyweight.

Focusing on maintenance work (a few sets of 4-6 reps per each big lift, done frequently) will send a biochemical signal that creates a "need" for the muscle, so it's less likely to be cannibalized.

Finally, dieting with a sane deficit (or an insane deficit under the right conditions) will largely spare muscle tissue until you try and force the body to an unnatural state of leanness, which varies for everyone.

i agree with pmdilly on this and i dont beleive there is any point in doing cardio(catabolic) when you are already on a deficet which means you will lose fat anyway.

 

[trainerty]

Cardio in or cardio out:

This depends on how much of a deficit you have on calories. Personally, I use cardio to really stimulate fat oxidation. Since fat ONLY burns in the presence of oxygen, it's best to implement cardio. On extreme deficits, a simple walk usally does it. On normal (closer to maintenance levels) type deficit HIIT is very valuable AND more moderate forms of cardio with heart rate around 70%.

 

[Roek]

i dont beleive there is any point in doing cardio(catabolic) when you are already on a deficet which means you will lose fat anyway.

I see what you are saying, but does this mean that when you don't hit the gym, you should upkeep your deficit by doing cardio? Because that is what most do, they do cardio when they don't go to the gym. Or do you mean that the right diet causing a slight deficit makes cardio unnecessary or even unrecommended?

-Roek

 

[buzz]

I see what you are saying, but does this mean that when you don't hit the gym, you should upkeep your deficit by doing cardio? Because that is what most do, they do cardio when they don't go to the gym. Or do you mean that the right diet causing a slight deficit makes cardio unnecessary or even unrecommended?

-Roek

yes if you are on a defecit but want to hold onto muscle then you only need to lift to maintane what you have,the defecit will lose the fat,doing cardio which does not cause muscle growth will or may be catabolic why take the risk when there is no need.

 

[~LV~]

If your diet is in check there is no reason why cardio should have any impact on lean tissue loss, even in a deficit. Also, Roek, where did you quote that statement above from? I read the whole thread and can't find anyone that posted that statement.

Or am I just missing something?

 

[Karky]

maybe someone deleted the post.

 

[SkianS40]

buzz said it in post #7...

 

[buzz]

If your diet is in check there is no reason why cardio should have any impact on lean tissue loss, even in a deficit. Also, Roek, where did you quote that statement above from? I read the whole thread and can't find anyone that posted that statement.

Or am I just missing something?

i said it in reply to pmdilly
my reasoning being cardio is for burning cals if you are already on lower than maintanance cals why burn more doing cardio,when you can be lifting to spare muscle

 

[Cynic]

Berardi also recommended I take BCAAs while cutting to help the muscle utilize protein more efficiently and prevent catabolism PWO.

 

[hadezflame]

so have we decided that you won't loose muscle while in a deficit if you take in enough protein? it looks like that's what you're sayin, but i just wanna double check.

 

[Roek]

I might be wrong on this but, yes. Protein would help the muscles, and the rest will be turned into energy and act like carbohydrates. Taking into consideration only your diet, and resistance training, excluding cardiovascular exercise, being on a small deficit will, with time, burn almost all fat. While on the deficit, one must continue to lift as heavy, and also have that "try to out-do my last work-out" mindset. Protein must be used as the primary source of energy to ensure muscle maintance and growth as the it is the priority.

Carbohydrates should be limited to work-out sessions in which they are used for energy. I believe coffee can aid in this, as the structure coffee posseses makes it impossible for the body to convert it into fat, unlike protein or carbs. Coffee reaches the liver and is instantly turned into energy. So, following this, coffee may be used pre-workout to provide energy and alertness, as well as better focus and less fatigue. During work-outs a mix of carbohydrates, and protein may be used. Protein alone could do the job and is recommended.

Someone, please correct me if I am wrong. Or add your comments.

-Roek

 

[Cynic]

Carbohydrates should be limited to work-out sessions in which they are used for energy.

Agreed. I tend to carb up with clean cookies and milk pre-workout, drink a liter of water with 1.5 scps surge (basically glucose and protein w/ some BCAAs) and have my pwo shake. This next workout, I'll have two pops of BCAAs pre and two post.

The cookies are no preservative, no transfats...pretty decent really.

I believe coffee can aid in this, as the structure coffee posseses makes it impossible for the body to convert it into fat, unlike protein or carbs.

I've read that pre-wo carbs and protein will help with muscle growth better than post alone. The coffee has come calories, but mainly the caffeine is what really helps.

Coffee reaches the liver and is instantly turned into energy. So, following this, coffee may be used pre-workout to provide energy and alertness, as well as better focus and less fatigue. During work-outs a mix of carbohydrates, and protein may be used. Protein alone could do the job and is recommended.

I don't know the bio-chemistry of coffee, but again, it's really the caffeine. I would recommend carbs so that you don't deplete your glycogen entirely mid-workout and hit a wall. That's happened to me plenty of time. i really notice a diff when I don't get some carbs in pre.

 

[Roek]

Carbohydrates from cookies as pre-workout? Would it be a better idea to make those carbohydrates double sugars? Like the ones found in fresh fruit, such as bananas and apples? Or maybe some complex carbs that will burn slowly like potatoes.

And when referring to coffee, I was indeed focusing on the caffeine. Lol.

-Roek

 

[Cynic]

Carbohydrates from cookies as pre-workout? Would it be a better idea to make those carbohydrates double sugars? Like the ones found in fresh fruit, such as bananas and apples? Or maybe some complex carbs that will burn slowly like potatoes.

This is what I was told...

Complex carbs are generally a slow burn carb and don't fuel enough for intense workouts, so perhaps simple mixed with complex. Fruit doesn't make a good carb choice because it's fructose and needs to be processed by the liver before it's usable (a long process) and then you've lost a quite a bit.

You definately want simple carbs. Try to make them clean (dextrose is a better choice, and dextrose with maltodextrin is probably even better). I have both dex and malt, but my first workout of the week comes right after work and I have so little time to get my shyt together before I have to be out the door for the start of work.

Potatos are probably a very good choice because they are a high GI (I'm pretty sure they're a high GI) starchy carb. I know Berardi says no to potatos except around workout time.

 

[Karky]

This is what I was told...

Complex carbs are generally a slow burn carb and don't fuel enough for intense workouts, so perhaps simple mixed with complex. Fruit doesn't make a good carb choice because it's fructose and needs to be processed by the liver before it's usable (a long process) and then you've lost a quite a bit.

You definately want simple carbs. Try to make them clean (dextrose is a better choice, and dextrose with maltodextrin is probably even better). I have both dex and malt, but my first workout of the week comes right after work and I have so little time to get my shyt together before I have to be out the door for the start of work.

Potatos are probably a very good choice because they are a high GI (I'm pretty sure they're a high GI) starchy carb. I know Berardi says no to potatos except around workout time.

I think a mix of simple and complex carbs before workout is the way to go, if i eat only simple carbs, i tend to get very tiered at the end of my workout. I eat simple carbs and have some more complex carbs as kind of a backup