Slow vs fast eccentric - sports

[Karky]

So, i always do my eccentric fast, but controlled and keeping good form ofcource. I was squatting a while ago, and some dude at the gym said how much better it was to go slow on the eccentric. I just replied with that i dont care that much about size, the usual reply i give when people give me a hard time about what i do. But then he says its better for sport too because in a sport you have to stop the movement before you can reverse it (if you run and have to change directions, you need to throw someone away in a contact sport, etc).
Now, what he says is true, but to me the slow eccentric makes no sence, because in a sport you have to stop the movement FAST right? so, if you squat, and go quick down, you will have to stop and reverse the movement much faster than if you go slowly down, if that makes sence? Since after all, the quicker the weight is decending at the point where you put inn all your efforts to stop and reverse the decent, the more force it has, right? I mean, whats easier, stopping a car that rolls at you at 5mph or 60?

Then theres the thing about the stretch reflex too, right? Going fast down will cause your muscles to contract, so you get a more explosive concentric out of the hole, which is what you need in a sport. If you run and need to change direction, its not like you slowly side lunge all the way down on one fot, then go the other way, you stop as fast as you can.

Just my logic sence speaking, is it right?

 

[evolution]

You're doing fine. The guy's logic is flawed. No one stops anyone in a sport slow...typically stopping someone is going to be more of a concentric motion anyway where there's a pushing motion or on the other hand an isometric contraction. While it may look slow at times, there's more of a maximal contraction happening. A lot like if you look at PLing, their concentric motions might look slow but they're applying maximal effort.

Really though...very few things in the gym are sport-specific too many sport aside from Pling and OLing. There's too many variables depending on X sport that is more than just an eccentric or concentric only contraction.

I think this is over-analyzed. Get stronger in the gym, get better at your position/sport by playing it. It's really simple. I'd venture to say this guy is just rehashing some stuff he read here and there and has only a superficial understanding of waht he is talking about.

That being said-concentric fast, eccentric under control but not slow. Slow eccentrics have gotten the wrap for giving some nice tendonitis.

Do slow eccentrics have their place? Sure.

 

[buzz]

The effects of eccentric and concentric training at different velocities on muscle hypertrophy.

Farthing JP, Chilibeck PD.

College of Kinesiology, University of Saskatchewan, 105 Gymnasium Place, Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, S7N 5C2, Canada.

The purpose of this study was to examine the effect of isokinetic eccentric (ECC) and concentric (CON) training at two velocities [fast, 180 degrees s(-1 )(3.14 rad s(-1)) and slow,30 degrees s(-1)(0.52 rad s(-1))] on muscle hypertrophy. Twenty-four untrained volunteers (age 18-36 years) participated in fast- ( n=13) or slow- ( n=11) velocity training, where they trained one arm eccentrically for 8 weeks followed by CON training of the opposite arm for 8 weeks. Ten subjects served as controls (CNT). Subjects were tested before and after training for elbow flexor muscle thickness by sonography and isokinetic strength (Biodex). Overall, ECC training resulted in greater hypertrophy than CON training (P<0.01). No significant strength or hypertrophy changes occurred in the CNT group. ECC (180 degrees s(-1)) training resulted in greater hypertrophy than CON (180 degrees s(-1)) training and CON (30 degrees s(-1)) training (P<0.01). ECC (30 degrees s(-1)) training resulted in greater hypertrophy than CON (180 degrees s(-1)) training (P<0.05), but not CON (30 degrees s(-1)) training. ECC (180 degrees s(-1)) training resulted in the greatest increases in strength (P<0.01). We conclude that ECC fast training is the most effective for muscle hypertrophy and strength gain.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Controlled Clinical Trial
Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't

PMID: 12756571 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[buzz]

Adaptation to chronic eccentric exercise in humans: the influence of contraction velocity.

Paddon-Jones D, Leveritt M, Lonergan A, Abernethy P.

Department of Surgery, University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston 77550, USA. djpaddon@utmb.edu

We compared changes in muscle fibre composition and muscle strength indices following a 10 week isokinetic resistance training programme consisting of fast (3.14 rad x s(-1)) or slow (0.52 rad x s(-1)) velocity eccentric muscle contractions. A group of 20 non-resistance trained subjects were assigned to a FAST (n = 7), SLOW (n = 6) or non-training CONTROL (n = 7) group. A unilateral training protocol targeted the elbow flexor muscle group and consisted of 24 maximal eccentric isokinetic contractions (four sets of six repetitions) performed three times a week for 10 weeks. Muscle biopsy samples were obtained from the belly of the biceps brachii. Isometric torque and concentric and eccentric torque at 0.52 and 3.14 rad x s(-1) were examined at 0, 5 and 10 weeks. After 10 weeks, the FAST group demonstrated significant [mean (SEM)] increases in eccentric [29.6 (6.4)%] and concentric torque [27.4 (7.3)%] at 3.14 rad x s(-1), isometric torque [21.3 (4.3)%] and eccentric torque [25.2 (7.2)%] at 0.52 rad x s(-1). The percentage of type I fibres in the FAST group decreased from [53.8 (6.6)% to 39.1 (4.4)%] while type IIb fibre percentage increased from [5.8 (1.9)% to 12.9 (3.3)%; P < 0.05]. In contrast, the SLOW group did not experience significant changes in muscle fibre type or muscle torque. We conclude that neuromuscular adaptations to eccentric training stimuli may be influenced by differences in the ability to cope with chronic exposure to relatively fast and slow eccentric contraction velocities. Possible mechanisms include greater cumulative damage to contractile tissues or stress induced by slow eccentric muscle contractions.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial
Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't

PMID: 11606016 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[flyinfree]

I have a T-shirt that says

"MYOB"

I think I will start wearing it to the gym. the people who know I am tri training see no reason for me to lift weights!! OH yeah! How about this-

BECAUSE I WANT TO -YOU FAG, SHUT YOUR MOUTH AND GO LIFT! "MYOB"

(and because my friends Evo and NAE82 have put effort into helping me)

Sorry, but being new to the gym and the advice givers that give their advice- right in the middle of a set no less!!!! make me mad! just had to say it.

if that dingo would have minded his own business you wouldn't be doubting yourself.

that is all
FF

p.s. if they are complimenting me I like it just fine- hahahahahaha

 

[goergen1]

Personally I am a fan of using a faster eccentric motion. I get stronger faster and am able to have a more intense workout.

buzz put up some research that seems to agree with my practical experience.

I also agree with evo that training in the gym will not necessarily transfer into gains on the track / field. So a squat for example will not translate into better skill changing direction. The increase in strength (if you are doing the eccentric phase faster as well) will increase the potential for improvements on the field, but will not guarantee them, since these are very different tasks.

A lot of the application for fast eccentric training in the gym is in the increase in strength and power. So for the better result in the gym I will keep training my eccentric phase faster.

As far as deceleration in sports is concerned a lot of the best strength and speed coaches are paying special attention to deceleration training. Which has been overlooked for quite some time.

What is being found is that if an athlete has a better ability to decelerate, he also has a better ability to change direction, in a much shorter period of time. This coupled with the fact that most injuries occur because an athletes body can not handle the forces of deceleration. This is where a lot of the drills are headed now.

A lot of newer training has athletes doing explosive movements using bands pulling in different directions. This increases the ground reaction forces since the band pulls you down / back / forward, at a faster speed than gravity. So an athlete is able to train in an environment where he can adapt to a higher ground reaction force than if he were just using his own bodyweight.

typically stopping someone is going to be more of a concentric motion anyway where there's a pushing motion or on the other hand an isometric contraction.

This here is an interesting example. What many people forget is that when you are stopping someone there is a point of impact. At that point the "stopper" has to take the force of the "attacker." There is always eccentric muscle action at this point, a better ability to handle eccentric force will give the "stopper" a better chance to stop.

(evo, I hope I used your comments in the proper context)

Then theres the thing about the stretch reflex too, right?

A true stretch reflex needs a lot more speed than you are going to get during a squat. The depth jump is a good example of increasing ground reaction forces in order to take advantage of the stretch reflex.

So it is not really applicable in the squatting context.

Karky - You are on the right track. The training of an athlete is a lot more than just gym training and practicing their sport. The best take advantage of a multitude of different training methods and means.

Also, there is a lot more to know about eccentric muscle action that is above and beyond just the "Lowering" phase of a lift. There are tons of applications both in and outside the gym.

I hope I explained this well

 

[evolution]

This here is an interesting example. What many people forget is that when you are stopping someone there is a point of impact. At that point the "stopper" has to take the force of the "attacker." There is always eccentric muscle action at this point, a better ability to handle eccentric force will give the "stopper" a better chance to stop.

(evo, I hope I used your comments in the proper context)

Yeah...I was visualizing in my head upon impact, the "stopper" pushing back. I was thinking one-sided for some reason. I'll back track to my comment that *typically* nothing on teh field is going to be purely eccentric or concentric.

I'm curious...without bands what would you use on your athletes to train the deceleration phase?

 

[goergen1]

I'm curious...without bands what would you use on your athletes to train the deceleration phase?

Here at the gym they do a lot of 2 leg jumps, then landing on one leg. They will do them in just about every direction possible.

It is interesting, you can tell who the studs are based upon how well they land.

A progression would be 2 leg jump to one leg, pushing off that leg sprint 10 yards. These will be done in just about every direction that can be thought of as well.

They also do a lot of start / stops. Sprint 10 - 20 yards, then stop as fast as possible. You can actually measure the distance it takes to stop and show progress as that distance decreases. (the guys who do the best on these also do the best on agility tests)

Sometimes the coach will train start / stops but call out a direction to sprint in before the athlete has completely stopped.

These are just a few, I will pay closer attention when I head to the gym tonight.