Out of shape and can't do a squat!

[tooaud2]

Man I am so out of shape! I have been trying to get back into exercising and losing weight. I have been attempting this seriously for about three weeks now. I have an elliptical trainer which at the present I am only able to do about 15 minutes. I got the Biggest Loser workout dvd and when I tried to do the workout everytime I tried to do a squat me knees creaked so bad it made my skin crawl. It doesn't hurt do much as feel uncomfortable and sound awful. I am 39 years old and weigh 166 lb. I ordered some MSM w/Glucosamine and have been taking that for about 5 days now but I haven't noticed any difference. Does anyone else have this problem and if so what do you do about it?

 

[PinkRoses]

Sounds as if your form is wrong, your kness should not pass your toes.
Supplements don't work that fast!
You weigh 166lbs, I'm pretty sure biggest loser is meant for much larger persons(I barely know what the program is saying that) and it's a franchise at that.

 

[tooaud2]

That's funny! I can't get down far enough for my knees to pass my toes! I have been reading on another forum that I probably just need to strenghten my knees. That sounds about right since 7 months ago I was very fit and active.It's terrible how fast one can become so unfit!

 

[RhoRho]

Oh no - am I too late for this one?

I had exactly this problem when I started my new weight training programme. I couldn't do squats as my knees just couldn't take it. And I'm 27!!

What my personal trainer advised was that I use the exercise ball - you know the one I mean, the round large ball - I place the ball between my back and the wall, then place my legs hip width apart AND forward so that my feet are sort of ahead of me. That way, when I do a squat, I'm able to complete the squat (albeit with difficulty but that's what weight training is all about) and push myself back up using the strength in the legs.

I'd suggest that if you go to the gym, you speak to a trainer about showing you how best to use the ball for squats - there's quite a few exercises that can make up for wonky knees like ours.. I'm also taking glucosamine, but trying more to focus on getting the right oils into my diet.

I hope it works out alright for you.

 

[Steve]

Sounds as if your form is wrong, your kness should not pass your toes.
Supplements don't work that fast!
You weigh 166lbs, I'm pretty sure biggest loser is meant for much larger persons(I barely know what the program is saying that) and it's a franchise at that.

You would die if you saw my squat, lol.

My knees pass my toes by a lot. They have to if you are going to get your hips below parallel, nice and deep.

Not going below parallel and keeping your knees behind your toes are not great recommendations.

To the original poster, I've taken that supplement before. I've seen so many conflicting studies on it that who knows what to believe. I thought it helped me a bit. However, I've also had joint pain while taking it, at other times. It's worth a try, I'd say.

What made you choose the biggest loser workout?

Also, if you can't do squats, substitute it for an easier exercise. Step-ups, lunges, split squats, etc. Build up to it.

 

[Steve]

Oh no - am I too late for this one?

I had exactly this problem when I started my new weight training programme. I couldn't do squats as my knees just couldn't take it. And I'm 27!!

What my personal trainer advised was that I use the exercise ball - you know the one I mean, the round large ball - I place the ball between my back and the wall, then place my legs hip width apart AND forward so that my feet are sort of ahead of me. That way, when I do a squat, I'm able to complete the squat (albeit with difficulty but that's what weight training is all about) and push myself back up using the strength in the legs.

I'd suggest that if you go to the gym, you speak to a trainer about showing you how best to use the ball for squats - there's quite a few exercises that can make up for wonky knees like ours.. I'm also taking glucosamine, but trying more to focus on getting the right oils into my diet.

I hope it works out alright for you.

This is a good post.

Essential fats have been shown to improve joint function and relieve joint pain.

Wall squats are something you could also try.

Learning squats using improper form, however, is definitely NOT what you want to do. Once you learn bad habits, they stick with you for a very long time.

 

[RhoRho]

Yay and Oooohh..

Yay, Steve thinks mine was a good post. Ooohh, as in you think I might be not performing squats properly? I was nervous about undertaking it myself as I was afraid of that very possibility, which is why I got the personal trainer to show me how it was done.

With my description of the squats, do you really think they're not being done properly? (Apologies to the thread starter on the divergence, but it might well help!)

 

[Steve]

Yay and Oooohh..

Yay, Steve thinks mine was a good post. Ooohh, as in you think I might be not performing squats properly? I was nervous about undertaking it myself as I was afraid of that very possibility, which is why I got the personal trainer to show me how it was done.

With my description of the squats, do you really think they're not being done properly? (Apologies to the thread starter on the divergence, but it might well help!)

No, I don't really know about your form. The other person above said something bout "knees not going past your toes" and that is incorrect.

And hopefully your trainer knew what he/she was doing when he/she instructed you.

 

[RhoRho]

Oh, ok *phew* That's a relief. I put so much effort into learning my current technique so it'd be weird to hear it was inherently wrong!

Thanks Steve

 

[Steve]

Oh, ok *phew* That's a relief. I put so much effort into learning my current technique so it'd be weird to hear it was inherently wrong!

Thanks Steve

Sadly, a lot of people put so much effort into learning the more complicated exercises only to learn that the "teacher" of those exercises was wrong.

 

[Michelle01]

Steve, can you explain why it's okay for the knees to go over the toes?

I just graduated as a PTA (physical therapist assistant) and the only time we discuss squats is with people recovering from a total knee replacement or an elderly patient with decreased strength. For both, our teachers stressed not to go over the toes because of the stress it places on the knees. I don't know a ton about strength training though and focused on neuro/strokes and geriatrics.

Were we taught this because of the surgery/age complications of our patients? I suppose that's not exactly what I mean, but I mean more like for people who are in poor shape, do they have different guidelines?

Or is it just some generally believed concept to not go over the toes?

 

[Steve]

Steve, can you explain why it's okay for the knees to go over the toes?

Certainly

I just graduated as a PTA (physical therapist assistant)

That is very cool. It's a field I've considered more than once! What's the next step on the career path?

and the only time we discuss squats is with people recovering from a total knee replacement or an elderly patient with decreased strength. For both, our teachers stressed not to go over the toes because of the stress it places on the knees. I don't know a ton about strength training though and focused on neuro/strokes and geriatrics.

Were we taught this because of the surgery/age complications of our patients? I suppose that's not exactly what I mean, but I mean more like for people who are in poor shape, do they have different guidelines?

You are exactly right, that's why you were taught that. I wish they would have taught you the comparable difference between people with contraindications and people without. It would help you better understand.

Or is it just some generally believed concept to not go over the toes?

This is true too. It's a useful recommendation for populations such as those you will be working with. Obviously, if you've had knee complications, putting the kind of stress on the knee joint required for deep squats would not be ideal.

However, this "advice" had carried over to healthy populations. And unfortunately, it isn't correct. If anything, it's detrimental. You don't use it, you lose it. We were born to have full flexion of our knee joint. Look at a toddler when they first start standing and walking. You will see them squatting very deep. (note: in order to squat deep, toes need to cross the toe-plane or you'd fall on your booty!

Looking at knee trauma to the patellar, you will find that a majority of the traumas occur when the toes are past the toe-line. This is one of the primary reasons why you find the recommendation for not going past the toes in healthy populations.

This is unfortunate though.

Having your knees go past your toes is unavoidable in healthy populations. Try walking up or down an incline (stairs, hills, etc) without your knees going beyond your toes.

By avoiding this in exercise, your are welcoming injury/pain in everyday life. Why not strengthen the musculatur BEFORE injury happens. Proprioception (did you learn about this?) is also minimized if you neglect this "zone" of training.

In order to keep your knee behind the toes, you would have to only squat to parallel or above. Or, if they are going to go to parallel or below, they are going to have to excessivly lean forward (hip flexion, torso lean) putting strain on the lumbar. I don't cut any other of my joint's ROM short, why would I on the knee?

 

[Steve]

Here is Eric Cressey's take on the subject, whom I believe to be one of the best in the industry when it comes to preventative/corrective exercise:

Debunking Exercise Myths, Part I
by Eric Cressey


We live in a society that doesn't want gray areas. People want right or wrong, up or down, and left or right. This mindset carries over to the gym, too; lifters want to be able to say that Exercise A is evil, and Exercise B is safe.

Unfortunately, it's not that simple, so with that in mind, I'm devoting this article to killing off some myths, establishing some more well-defined gray areas, and making recommendations on who can do what.

I'm going to come right out and say it: in the absence of musculoskeletal pathology, no movement is fundamentally bad. Sure, there are exercises like kickbacks and leg extensions that don't give you as much bang for your buck as their multi-joint counterparts (e.g. dips and squats), but that's not to say that these pansy exercises are "bad" for you. Likewise, it's rare that I write any sort of machine lift into my programming, but there are rehabilitation patients that benefit greatly from certain machine training.

In my opinion, there are only five scenarios in which exercise is ever truly bad for you from a health standpoint:

1. When that exercise is performed in excessive volume.

2. When that exercise is performed with poor technique.

3. When that exercise is performed in a manner that puts it out of balance with the rest of the programming that is in place.

4. When that exercise irritates an existing injury or condition.

5. When that exercise is performed with excessive loading (relative to the lifter's capabilities).

Now, it's not feasible for me to outline every specific instance where every exercise is safe or unsafe, but I can address some common adages we frequently hear in our gyms.


Adage #1: Your knees shouldn't pass your toes when you squat.

First off, you need to consider whether you're a powerlifter or a bodybuilder. In other words, are you planning on hammering your posterior chain by using predominantly the hamstrings, glutes and lumbar erectors to complete the movement? Or, are you looking to overload the quads?

It goes without saying that the movements are significantly different, so it's important to first differentiate between the two. In the powerlifting squat, you'll be sitting back, arching hard, and attempting to keep the shins perpendicular to the floor; in other words, there will be more trunk flexion, thus facilitating recruitment of the hip extensors and enabling you to get to parallel easier.

While the knee extensors are going to be involved to some extent (as there is knee flexion occurring on the eccentric), it's the muscles acting at the hip that account for the majority of the force that brings you out of the hole. It is, however, virtually impossible to squat rock bottom with a powerlifting style squat; your chest would be on top of your thighs far before your hamstrings hit your calves (unless you have freaky big hamstrings and calves).

In the Olympic version of the squat, initiating the movement is still about sitting back, but not nearly to the same degree as the former example. Essentially, we're looking for a happy medium between sitting back and sitting down. The knees are going to come in front of the toes simply because this is the only way to get deep when the trunk is more upright; if the knees stay directly above the toes on an Olympic squat, your base of support is too narrow, your center of gravity is shifted backward, and you fall backward (and still don't get your depth). You see this all the time in beginners. It's almost as pathetic as when they talk on their cell phones in the gym.

So, the question arises of whether or not the knees coming in front of the toes during the Olympic squat is dangerous. Fry, Smith, and Schilling (2003) examined joint kinetics during back squats under two conditions.(1) In the first condition, a board placed in front of the participants' shins restricted the forward displacement of the knees. In the second condition, movement wasn't restricted at all; they squatted normally, and the knees passed the toes (gasp!).

The researchers found that restricting the forward excursion of the knees during the squat increased anterior lean of the trunk and promoted an increased "internal angle at the knees and ankles." The results were a 22% decrease in knee torque and a 1070% increase in hip torque!

Sure, they "saved" the knees by limiting stress on them, but those forces were transferred more than tenfold to the hips and lower back! The researchers concluded that "appropriate joint loading during this exercise may require the knees to move slightly past the toes". "May?" Ugh. I mean honestly; look at these photos that the authors included. Isn't the lumbo-pelvic position in "B" just lovely?

Source: Fry and Smith, 2003, J Strength Cond Res.

In consideration of this study and photo "B," some might wonder whether powerlifting squats are safe on the hips and lower back. My answer is a resounding "YES" for several reasons. First, powerlifters attempt to minimize, not eliminate, the knees coming in front of the toes. There is always going to be at least subtle anterior excursion of the knees relative to the feet.

Second, powerlifters know to sit back and not down when they squat; the participants in this study were still attempting to do the latter when they performed the restricted squats. If you try to Olympic squat with the shins perpendicular to the floor; your lower back is going to round... period. Engaging in this debate would amount to comparing apples and oranges.

Third, powerlifters are proficient at establishing and maintaining a tight arch of the lumbar spine; this position is crucial to keeping the chest up and, in turn, the center of gravity within the base of support (or else the movement becomes a good morning). This position also places the hamstrings at a mechanical advantage.

Fourth, powerlifters assume a squatting stance that is at least a little wider than that of Olympic lifters; this repositioning "opens up" the hips and enables one to get deeper without considerable forward excursion of the knees.

Fifth, photo "B" is not a powerlifting squat; it's just a mess of torso and limbs with a bar on top.


Adage #2: You should not squat below parallel.

I'm on a roll with the squatting issue, so I might as well stick with it. Let's get something straight right off the bat: the "parallel" designation is something that was not borne out of any biomechanical rationale whatsoever. Rather, it is a product of needing a way to determine if the squat is completed in lifting competition. Where people lost sight of this fact is beyond my comprehension, so I'll simply ask this: would you use partial range of motion on other exercises in a healthy individual without any exercise contraindications? I didn't think so. Although this reasoning ought to be enough for most of you, how about a little literature to back this up?

Salem and Powers (2001) looked at patellofemoral joint kinetics in female collegiate athletes at three different depths: 70 degrees (above parallel), 90 degrees (at parallel), and 110 degrees (below parallel) of knee flexion. The researchers found that "Peak knee extensor moment, patellofemoral joint reaction force and patellofemoral joint stress did not vary significantly between the three squatting trials (2);" there was no support for the idea that squatting below parallel increases stress on the patellofemoral joint.

It's important to also note that squatting depth should be determined by the athlete's flexibility and goals, as well as the nature of his sport. If one doesn't have the flexibility to get below parallel safely, then the rock-bottom squat shouldn't be part of his arsenal; this athlete's attention would be better devoted elsewhere and possibly supplemented with squats at or above parallel.

It stands to reason that different athletes will have different goals in light of the demands of their sports, too. For instance, Olympic lifters and rock climbers would require positions of deep closed-chain knee flexion more often that offensive linemen and marathoners. Then again, the nature of some sports requires that deep squatting be used to offset the imbalances that result from always working the knee extensors in the 1/4 and 1/2 squat positions; this is one reason that cyclists, hockey players, and athletes who do significant amounts of running (e.g. soccer players, marathoners) ought to prioritize deep squatting and single-leg movements early in the off-season.

Finally, it's important to remember that while a full range-of-motion squat will offer noticeable carryover to top-end strength, 1/4 squats will not yield strength increases in the lower positions. Effectively, you get more bang for your training buck by squatting deep, which is one reason why this modality is the best option for those purely interested in looking good nekkid.

 

[Steve]

More from Cressey:

I'm on a roll with the squatting issue, so I might as well stick with it. Let's get something straight right off the bat: the "parallel" designation is something that was not borne out of any biomechanical rationale whatsoever. Rather, it is a product of needing a way to determine if the squat is completed in lifting competition. Where people lost sight of this fact is beyond my comprehension, so I'll simply ask this: would you use partial range of motion on other exercises in a healthy individual without any exercise contraindications? I didn't think so. Although this reasoning ought to be enough for most of you, how about a little literature to back this up?

Salem and Powers (2001) looked at patellofemoral joint kinetics in female collegiate athletes at three different depths: 70 degrees (above parallel), 90 degrees (at parallel), and 110 degrees (below parallel) of knee flexion. The researchers found that "Peak knee extensor moment, patellofemoral joint reaction force and patellofemoral joint stress did not vary significantly between the three squatting trials (2);" there was no support for the idea that squatting below parallel increases stress on the patellofemoral joint.

It's important to also note that squatting depth should be determined by the athlete's flexibility and goals, as well as the nature of his sport. If one doesn't have the flexibility to get below parallel safely, then the rock-bottom squat shouldn't be part of his arsenal; this athlete's attention would be better devoted elsewhere and possibly supplemented with squats at or above parallel.

It stands to reason that different athletes will have different goals in light of the demands of their sports, too. For instance, Olympic lifters and rock climbers would require positions of deep closed-chain knee flexion more often that offensive linemen and marathoners. Then again, the nature of some sports requires that deep squatting be used to offset the imbalances that result from always working the knee extensors in the 1/4 and 1/2 squat positions; this is one reason that cyclists, hockey players, and athletes who do significant amounts of running (e.g. soccer players, marathoners) ought to prioritize deep squatting and single-leg movements early in the off-season.

Finally, it's important to remember that while a full range-of-motion squat will offer noticeable carryover to top-end strength, 1/4 squats will not yield strength increases in the lower positions. Effectively, you get more bang for your training buck by squatting deep, which is one reason why this modality is the best option for those purely interested in looking good nekkid.

Your toes should point straight-ahead when squatting.

"Should" and "Can" are two completely different stories. In order to squat, leg press, or do any other closed-chain movement involving considerable knee flexion, we need a certain amount of dorsiflexion range of motion at our ankles.

Unfortunately, as Mike Robertson and I pointed out in our Neanderthal No More series, a large percentage of the population has tight calves and tends to over-pronate at the subtalar joints (leading to flat feet). As a result, dorsiflexion ROM is compromised, and if the lifter tries to squat deep with the toes pointing straight ahead, he must compensate by a) rising up on the toes, b) increasing the amount of hip flexion, or c) combining the two in what makes for an extremely ugly squat.

Fortunately, you can alleviate these problems by simply externally rotating the feet (pointing the toes outward); doing so "unlocks" the ankles and gives you the requisite amount of dorsiflexion you'll need to squat. You should still, however, work toward a point where you can squat with the feet pointing nearly straight ahead; this "work" should consist of loosening up the hip flexors and plantarflexors.

 

[Steve]

More from Cressey:

There are several schools of thought on squat depth. Many misinformed individuals caution against squatting below parallel, stating that this is hazardous to the knees. Nothing could be further from the truth. (2) Stopping at or above parallel places direct stress on the knees, whereas a deep squat will transfer the load to the hips,(3) which are capable of handling a greater amount of force than the knees should ever be exposed to. Studies have shown that the squat produces lower peak tibeo-femoral(stress at the knee joint) compressive force than both the leg press and the leg extension.(4) For functional strength, one should descend as deeply as possible, and under control. (yes, certain individuals can squat in a ballistic manner, but they are the exception rather than the rule). The further a lifter descends, the more the hamstrings are recruited, and proper squatting displays nearly twice the hamstring involvement of the leg press or leg extension. (5,6) and as one of the functions of the hamstring is to protect the patella tendon (the primary tendon involved in knee extension) during knee extension through a concurrent firing process, the greatest degree of hamstring recruitment should provide the greatest degree of protection to the knee joint. (7) When one is a powerlifter, the top surface of the legs at the hip joint must descend to a point below the top surface of the legs at the knee joint.

Knee injuries are one of the most commonly stated problems that come from squatting, however, this is usually stated by those who do not know how to squat. A properly performed squat will appropriately load the knee joint, which improves congruity by increasing the compressive forces at the knee joint. (8,(9) which improves stability, protecting the knee against shear forces. As part of a long-term exercise program, the squat, like other exercises, will lead to increased collagen turnover and hypertrophy of ligaments. (10,11) At least one study has shown that international caliber weightlifters and powerlifters experience less clinical or symptomatic arthritis. (12) Other critics of the squat have stated that it decreases the stability of the knees, yet nothing could be further from the truth. Studies have shown that the squat will increase knee stability by reducing joint laxity, as well as decrease anterior-posterior laxity and translation. (13,14) The squat is, in fact, being used as a rehabilitation exercise for many types of knee injuries, including ACL repair.

 

[Steve]

Some info from Erik Ledin, from leanbodiesconsulting.com, great trainer in the industry:

A little anatomy ...

The knee has four main protective ligaments that keep the femur from displacing on the tibia (ACL, PCL, MCL, LCL). These four ligaments are most effective at their protection during full extension and full flexion. Full extension would be when you are standing; full flexion would be when there is no daylight between your hamstring and your calf. When the knee is at 90 degrees of flexion (the halfway point), these four ligaments are almost completely lax and cannot exert much if any of a protective force at the knee

Unfortunately, the position where the protective ligaments of the knee are not doing any protecting is the common recommended stopping point of a squat. Therefore, as it as it turns out, this is the exact worst place you could reverse the motion under load.

If flexibility allows (heels staying planted, torso not flexing forward past 45 degrees), then a full squat where you lower yourself all the way to the ground is far safer on the knees than the traditional half squat. Guess what joint angle most leg extension machines start at? 90 degrees. This arguably makes a full squat even safer than a leg extension machine (

Should you never to do parallel squats? I'm not saying that. Is it a guarantee that you’ll injure yourself on a parallel squat? No.

The point is that full squats are safe and I'll even say that if development is your priority, they're also much more effective.

Another point - full range of motion = full development. How many other exercises do you see people doing with only half the range of motion? Most with truly impressive leg development are in fact full squatters.

 

[Michelle01]

Thanks, Steve. I'll come back tonight and read the articles. I was just doing a quick pop in.

My next career choice is to go back for sonography. I loved the intricate ways the internal organs function during anatomy and decided, long term, I'd like to do something more with internal organ function. I'm thinking abdominal sonography or cardiac sonography as my specialty. I'll have to wait till I go back to find out which I like more. Already on the excessively long waiting list for that program.

Had I not decided on that during college, I would have gone back eventually for the PT degree.

We did learn a ton about proprioception, especially with geriatrics and children. Not so much for general surgery recovery, though it all carries over.

And now, running off on you (literally) and will be back to read the articles tonight.

 

[Michelle01]

Effectively, you get more bang for your training buck by squatting deep, which is one reason why this modality is the best option for those purely interested in looking good nekkid.

I just really liked this comment . That is definitely an interest for someday down the line.

whereas a deep squat will transfer the load to the hips,(3) which are capable of handling a greater amount of force than the knees should ever be exposed to.

Definitely true, which also leads to a 8 wk to 3 month outpatient therapy for knee replacements (cemented)/ACL repairs and other knee injuries. Yet someone with a complete hip joint replacement (cemented), just have three day inpatient therapy that a total knee also receives. No outpatient for hip replacements unless it's non-cemented. And I've not seen anyone with a non-cemented knee replacement, but then I've not been around the field long.

At least one study has shown that international caliber weightlifters and powerlifters experience less clinical or symptomatic arthritis.

I would have thought the opposite from my classes. Osteoarthritis is pretty much drilled as using a joint repeatedly over time and wearing it down. So, it's sort of the opposite of what we learned, especially since knee joints were the most often referenced because they are most often affected by osteoarthritis. I wish you had been in my class before I started clinicals. I would like to go back these past few months of clinicals to ask the patients I saw what type of exercises they performed prior to knee joint osteoarthrisit.

Other critics of the squat have stated that it decreases the stability of the knees, yet nothing could be further from the truth. Studies have shown that the squat will increase knee stability by reducing joint laxity, as well as decrease anterior-posterior laxity and translation. (13,14) The squat is, in fact, being used as a rehabilitation exercise for many types of knee injuries, including ACL repair.

Yep, that I can vouch for. EVERYONE did squats. However, they were typically 1/4 squats and never exceeded the toes. Squats are also good for retraining a person with a stroke to walk if they lost that ability but yet have some muslce control in the impaired side. It's one of the first steps to build up pushing strenth in the leg to maintain standing/standing during walking/propulsion forward.

Another point - full range of motion = full development. How many other exercises do you see people doing with only half the range of motion? Most with truly impressive leg development are in fact full squatters.

Eventually I will be joining a gym when I outgrow my weights at home. I will have to do some stalking of the people with the nice leg muscles.

Thank You again Steve. And I really do wish you would have been in my class. I think if you go for the PTA or PT degree, the class will probably learn as much from you as from the teacher. If you do consider it again, I'll advise you to go for the PT degree. It's more school, but the jobs for PTA's is diminishing (not a whole lot, but enough that my class as a whole is having trouble finding work). Most places now are looking for PT's because there is a shortage of PT's to PTA ratio.

 

[tooaud2]

Wow you guys get really in depth here! I'm sorry I haven't been around lately. I have been so busy studying what I think may be my biggest health problem. Since I have put back on 48 pounds in 6 months I knew something was just not right. I had been diagnosed Hypothyroid about 16 years ago and I have been taking meds ever since. I never really gave it much thought after that. Well since I put all that weight on so fast I decided to start doing some research. I have discovered that I am probably not on the correct dosage or medication for my illness. The MSM is not helping and one of the symptoms of low thryoid is joint pain. I have just started taking a new medication but will not be tested again for 5 more weeks. I hope to begin seeing results soon.

The reason I choose the Biggset Loser Workout is because it has a circuit strength training workout on it. I hate aerobics and this way I can get my heart rate up and build muscle at the same time. Plus it is only 20 minutes which is about all I can do right now with my energy level.