New runner help please...

[BikeSwimLaugh]

Okay.....I've been doing lots of biking & swimming, it was finally time to dial in some running to my routine. My knee injury is better and so I've begun running! (on a treadmill)

A bit of background. I've always said of myself "I can't run"....what generally happens is that my shins start to burn, my heart starts pounding and I run out of breath....BUT that was 1.5 years ago when I was 45 pounds heavier and not doing all the riding, spinning & swimming I do now.

So this is what I'd like to confer with you guys about....

When I started biking, I remember how grueling hard it was...I was in my lowest gears, sweat pouring from my helmet, being out of breath....but it quickly got easier and I got faster and could go much further.

Same thing with swimming...I remember going 7 laps and thinking my arms would fall off....but today I can go 4 miles non-stop! (my record)

So here's what is happening now. I've run on the treadmill about 3-4 times now. Oddly enough my heart-rate is looming around 135-140...a mere fraction of the 150-165 I can churn while riding the bike, BUT my legs are sorta hurting, particularly the calves...they feel tight. My first run was about 8 minutes (then I had to get to class), then my next run was 12 minutes and today I went a mile+ in 15 minutes. I'm running at 4.3 mph....not very fast I realize, but I just don't fit the profile: I look like a stalky weight-lifter.

So I guess, what I'm getting at....is this going to be just like my biking or swimming where I'll just get better, faster and be able to go longer?

I'm also suprised at why my HR is so low and yet I'm feeling the fatigue like I'm reaching the last rep of an exercise. What I have to do is really focus on relaxing my calves as I run on the treadmill...if I really focus on keeping things loose, then I tend not to feel that burn sensation. Any thoughts on that?

What speed should I try to run at? What about the incline? I'm a complete newb to this...so don't presume I know anything. Honestly, I never thought I'd be running...so this is all mind-boggling to me...but if my goal is to do a triathlon, then this has to be integrated into my routine.

What I'm doing is taking a spin-class and then jumping on the treadmill between the 15-20 minutes before the next spin-class, and then I swim a mile. I'm doing this 2-3x per week and it takes about 3 hours each time. Is this what I should be doing to train for a tri? Each time I hit the gym I spin/run/swim. I may evolve it into run/spin/run/spin/ swim....I want 2 miles total run, 1 miles swim and 2.25 hours on the bike. Along with good diet, I seem to be making progress again!!!

My secret? Whe friends & doctors tell me I'm "excessive"...I just replace their words with the phrase "Keep it up!!"

 

[flyinfree]

the very best thing that ever happened to me in my rnning career is learning RPE and running based on time.

meaning go out and run RPE 2-3 (talking in sentences of 5 words) for 30 minutes. So, leave the house, go 15 minutes out, and 15 minutes back, AND THEN STRETCH afterwards for 5 minutes or so, every time.

do this 2-3 times a week for 2-3 weeks and see how you start to develop. By the time you hit your 4,5 and 6th run, you will find your speed already starting to pick up. BUT- limit yourself.

I have seen you body type. I expect that you will get proper shoes. and please do a lil reading around.

I do not debate. I share what I HAVE DONE, and I can run. As far as science and theories and all that go- do whatever you want. I will watch and try and pitch in where I can.

you EXCESS charactoristic can ruin your body in the case of running. I know all about that,, as I am advanst in dumb.

IN your case, I am gong to try and look out for you.

See Phates journal. OH, and even better-- REGISTER FOR AN EVENT.

welcome to runners world.
FF

 

[Wrangell]

What I'm doing is taking a spin-class and then jumping on the treadmill between the 15-20 minutes before the next spin-class, and then I swim a mile.

I'm doing this 2-3x per week and it takes about 3 hours each time.

Is this what I should be doing to train for a tri? Each time I hit the gym I spin/run/swim. I may evolve it into run/spin/run/spin/ swim....I want 2 miles total run, 1 miles swim and 2.25 hours on the bike. Along with good diet, I seem to be making progress again!!!

I suspect your tri is going to take about 3 hours +/- in total to complete as it is.

As we've already discussed, I don't think anyone needs to train 3 hours a day - but that's another topic.

In any event, if you plan on continuing to do these 3 hour training sessions, and plan on continuing to do each of the 3 tri requirements in each session, you might be better served allocating your 3 hours of training in the order of priority - time wise - to what you'll see in the race.

For example, the swim should only take you somewhere around 35 +/- minutes.....which it seems you're doing now. I'd simply add that with the nicer weather, you'll also definitely want to get out of the pool and do some outdoor swims - using a wet suit.

The bike portion of a tri could take you about 1.15 +/ - hours. You already do 2 sessions of 1+ hours each for a total 2.25 hours. So, perhaps drop the second spin session, and instead of your 15-20 minutes of running between spin sessions as you do now, do a 1 hour spin class and then 20 minutes of biking on your own for a total of 1 and 20 minutes of biking....close to what you might see in the tri.

The tri will have a 10 k run, which you should be able to do in about an hour. In place of that 2nd spin class, you might try and eventually do 1 hour of running either with some high tempo runs or some fartlek style runs or some combo of HITT steady state to take up the hour. You want to build up some running endurance. Also, you usually want to have the treadmill incline set at 1 or 2 ( instead of 0 ) as it better simulates outdoor running IMO.

My secret? Whe friends & doctors tell me I'm "excessive"...I just replace their words with the phrase "Keep it up!!"

I would have to tend to agree with them.

 

[flyinfree]

p.s. read gooches "running a new endeavor" thread. There is alot to be gained from his PAIN!

 

[MsTeechur]

Wrangell has some REALLY good information there. Definitely has laid out some sensible training tips.

It sounds to me like you're trying to push it WAY too much. Running is kind of like when you first start swimming. If you push too hard you feel like you're getting nowhere, it hurts, and you get injured. If you relax, listen to your body, and push just hard enough to feel it, but not so hard it hurts, you'll see gains MUCH faster. Plus, you'll enjoy it.

Almost every triathlete has one sport that they don't feel confident in. Mine is the swim. I know I CAN swim, but I still panic at the start of the swim. Because of that, I put a lot of focus on my swim training. The tendency of new triathletes is to focus on what they do best. For you it sounds like that's biking. So it becomes a cycle (no pun intended) of doing better and better in your best sport, and still feeling inadequate in your "worst".

If it were me, I'd drop the second spin class. You're a biking fool anyhow, and that spin class is meeting that point of diminishing returns. In other words, you're not getting nearly as much benefit out of a second spin class at your current state of bike fitness as you used to. That's normal. It's because you're very "bike fit".

Instead, head OUTSIDE and work on your running. (Actually, I'd do the running first so you're fresh, then spin or bike. Biking does great things for "spinning out" your muscles after a run.) Dedicate that hour to your run. That doesn't mean you should go out for an hour and run every day. No way. You'll injure yourself. I'd start out small; ten minute warm up (light jog or brisk walk for 6 or so minutes, then some dynamic stretching), run at an RPE of 4-5 for 15-20 minutes, then 10 minute cool down (slow jog, brisk walk, then good session of static stretching). If you don't have time for all of that, make sure the warm up and cool down stays. They are very important.

Of course if you're going straight to spin class you can do your cooldown after that, but stretch WELL!

Shin splints are very normal. Almost all new runners get them. Your calves will develop faster than your little muscle in front (which I can never remember the name of), which pulls it and causes tightness. Ice ice Baby! Some great shin-splint exercises are:

1. Tap up and down with your heel on the floor. (I think I tapped constantly for 3 weeks straight when I had shin splints.)
2. Draw the alphabet in the air with your foot. It loosens, stretches, and actually builds those small muscles.
3. Point and flex. Point your toes out as far as they can go. Hold for ten. Then flex them up as high they will go. Hold for ten.
4. Take off your shoes, find a nice patch of grass that is dog-doo free. Walk on your toes for ten steps. Walk on your heels for ten steps.

These also help the ankle muscles. (And as I was typing them I found myself doing them, and it felt great.)

How are your shoes? Have you picked up a good quality pair of shoes? If you haven't, run your butt to a good running store. Not a mall store. But one that is stocked with actual runners, not teenagers saving for their first car. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) They should watch you run and let you try on 4-6 pair of shoes and run in them. A good store will allow a 30 day return if they don't work out, and yes you can run outside in those 30 days. Their goal should be to get you in the right shoes, not make a single sale of the latest, greatest, shiny pair.

 

[g8r80]

So I guess, what I'm getting at....is this going to be just like my biking or swimming where I'll just get better, faster and be able to go longer?

You already have the cardio, so running will come faster to you than biking did. Swimming is a little different because it is so technique-dependent, unlike running and biking.

I'm also suprised at why my HR is so low and yet I'm feeling the fatigue like I'm reaching the last rep of an exercise. What I have to do is really focus on relaxing my calves as I run on the treadmill...if I really focus on keeping things loose, then I tend not to feel that burn sensation. Any thoughts on that?

Your HR is low because your limiting factor is your legs, not your cardiovascular/pulmonary systems. Your calves and shin muscles (tibialis anterior) are under-developed relative to your lungs/heart and they are keeping you from hitting a high HR and higher speeds.

What speed should I try to run at? What about the incline? I'm a complete newb to this...so don't presume I know anything. Honestly, I never thought I'd be running...so this is all mind-boggling to me...but if my goal is to do a triathlon, then this has to be integrated into my routine.

I think all highly-paid coaches recommend periodization once you've attained a high level of fitness. Until then, I think all of them recommend going out and putting in miles. Obviously, if you go out too fast, you're not going to make it. FWIW, I am getting back into running, after my 10-week involuntary layoff, and am doing 5K runs at the fastest speed I can maintain for that time.

Also, triathlons have various length runs. Sprint tris are typically 5K, Olympic length is always 10K and Half IM is half marathon and Full IM is full marathon. So, to be able to do a sprint tri would require that you be able to swim about 500 yards +/- (no problem for you), bike 13 miles +/- (again no problem), and still have enough in the tank to go 5K run. There are plenty of training programs out there to help prepare you and I think FF and Sparrow use them, but you have to build your base miles up before they are of any use to you. When you can crank out a 5K without feeling like death becomes you, then you are ready to start looking into the finder details of periodization Grasshopper![/QUOTE]

At 200+ you will never be a gazelle or Kenyan marathoner, but that is okay. You can get that time down into the 8 - 9 min/mile range down fairly quickly.

 

[BikeSwimLaugh]

Wow...thanks for all the good help, advice & suggestions!

First & foremost.....yes; I will do some serious research and look into various threads to see how others learned. Good idea!

Second, there's a store near me where you take off your shoes and run barefoot on some treadmill while they video-tape you and some impression-sensor reads your foot steps....then they review your movement, factor-in lots of details and proceed to advise you which shoes are best suited for your running needs. Generally we're talking somewhere between $120 to $180 and it falls between 3-4 particular brands. I think I recall either FF or G8 straight-up proclaiming one brand/model the out & out best shoe ever.....??

Thirdly....maybe this is a good time for me to back-up and review. About 18 months ago the doc's wanted to put me on meds and I finally hit my mid-life health-snap and decided to finally get serious. I did. I've lost a lot of weight and developed some fairly good endurance. Compared to you guys, I ain't got nothin'...but the rest of the mortal world thinks what I'm able to do is insane-good.

I think I may be making a wrong jump in direction...so let me quickly explain:

Monday is busy in the home-office, I do 1 spin-class & 1-mile swim and then meet racquetball buddies for a lite dinner.

Tues & Thurs is weights & training
Wed & Fri is my 3-hour spin/run/swim

Sat or Sun...one day I'll try to take off or just do elliptical...the other day is a mix of either mountain biking and/or weights.

Each week is different based on life events, but PLEASE...do not think I'm doing 3 hours of cardio each and every day! At this point I'm doing about 11-13 hours per week, and that includes all exercise.

Weight-training is weights, no need to discuss that here. Moving on to my cardio component.

The cardio I chose back when I started was mountain biking...as time went on I was able to bike longer, faster & harder. I only extended my time/length because anything less just felt like I was slacking. The thins is, unless I feel like I'm "pushing it" and a bit sore, it seems like I'm just not going to make progress. Like a drug addiction, it seems like my body only responds with further fat-loss when I break further from my comfort-zone....so my rides got longer & longer. I already know what you're saying: instead of riding longer, why not just keep the same distance but push harder?....to that I say, I do push hard, but I keep a max-rpm of about 160-165 rpm...I just don't feel comfortable pushing my heart harder other then for very short burst or macho-competitive instances. Also, I LOVE these long rides....it's very theraputic, my favorite ride is the long one (ends at a scenic outlook) and doing medium-intensity, steady-state is good for burning calories....so there's that. I cruise at 145-150 HR.

As summer hit I added swimming in my own pool (right after my ride)..it's a great way to get some upper-body, stretch a bit, keep burning calories and clean myself and the outfit.

As winter hit, I retreated to the gym where I discovered spin-class and the pool right afterwards. Up until a month ago that was my thing: spin/swim. Love it, it's my routine.

Then, with my recent stall in weight-loss it was suggested I perhaps mix-up the cardio with something else....so I decided to venture into the world of running. I had heard that while swimming may encourage the body to store fat, running is the opposite: it almost shakes the fat off the body in that it places a demand for a ligher/leaner body. Is this true? Who knows...but nobody could argue that adding running was outside the routine-box. I also got some exposure to running with my physical therapy with my knee...and to my surprise (and with my weight-loss and built cardio)...I discovered I could run!

So here we are...I'm adding running between spin-classes. Instead of sitting there for 15-20 minutes w/o music waiting for the class to start, I jump off the bike, throw on my running shoes and get on the treadmill.

Guys...I'm just trying to lose weight, BUT I do enjoy the notion that if I keep it up and train for it...perhaps I could do a triathlon. But to break it down honestly, it's 90% about weight-loss and getting in shape and only 10% the trophy-notion & inspiration of training for a tri.

I just presumed the natural training for a tri would be to do those activities in succession at the gym. I know I finish with swimming and I'm doing it all out-of-order, but at this point (given that I'm 5' 8" and still about 230 pounds)...I don't think it's time to quite hone it all in towards competing. Perhaps it's more realistic to say I'm traing in a triathlon-like manner?

Jeez...where am I going with this? I guess I just figured I hadn't given you all the info to understand where I'm coming from and where I'm going. So there it is. Much of what I'm doing is about losing weight and having fun at the gym...the whole notion of training for a tri is inspriation and direction.

My hunch is that, as suggested, my running will quickly improve and I'll be able to go longer & faster on the treadmill. At this point I like the treadimll because I can get off at any time and not find myself stranded somewhere on the road, plus I'm just doing it to break-up my routine while at the gym.

I think I should pass on the first spin-class and instead work on the treadmill...then take the spin, then finish with swim. I have too many friends in spin-class to back out of that...there are social factors. I love the pool too much to pass on finishing-up with that...and this thread was all about discovering the world of running.

 

[g8r80]

I don't think running encourages your body to be leaner. More likely, long mileage runners burn the cals and stay lean or if you are gonna be a long distance runner, you would get your body down to 5% bf.

As for shoes, take a look at Asics 2120 (currently replaced by 2130).

 

[BikeSwimLaugh]

As for shoes, take a look at Asics 2120 (currently replaced by 2130).

A few people had suggested to deliberately get a pair about 1/2-size larger then normal....any truth that that?

 

[g8r80]

A few people had suggested to deliberately get a pair about 1/2-size larger then normal....any truth that that?

Just like when biking, your feet will swell when hot. So, make sure you try on shoes when your feet are hot and worked up, not when they are cold. A half-size will probably accommodate all your foot swelling, so that is probably where that idea came from.

 

[flyinfree]

Just like when biking, your feet will swell when hot. So, make sure you try on shoes when your feet are hot and worked up, not when they are cold. A half-size will probably accommodate all your foot swelling, so that is probably where that idea came from.

I have never heard of planning for a foot to swell. But, I have bought my shoes at a runnign cneter for a very long time, and they may just incorporate that into their thinking. My shoes are two different sizes, and widths.

BSL- do not just give up on running, out of fear. Just be aware of the HIGH impact discipline that it is, and pay attention to your body an parts.

 

[BikeSwimLaugh]

BSL- do not just give up on running, out of fear. Just be aware of the HIGH impact discipline that it is, and pay attention to your body an parts.

Dude....I'm on it!

I ran again today (on the treadmill, before spin-class). I did 2 miles, but that was after 5 minutes (1/4-mile) warming-up and I had to take a break cause my right shin was burning! I was only running at 4.3mph and my HR was only 130...but any faster and the burn would make me stop.

No dude...I won't give-up. I don't have a runner's build but I'm gonna do this for sure!

The good news is I met a trainer/instructor who seems eager to help me with everything...she's impressed with my progress, see's I'm interested and wants to help me get there. Talk about credentials, I don't know how it works, but she told me she just won Trainer of the Year. I don't know about that, but she says she runs 27-mile marathons and isn't even tired or sore...so she'll teach me how to run in her running boot-camp and she has another class or two that she says will help me. FWIW, her husband is the spin-instructor and he was some European cycling champion for some many years. Blah blah blah...but at least it sounds like I'm mounting-up some good people to help me. The secret to getting people to like you is...give them respect, acknowledge their authority and above all else: always...ALWAYS wear deoderant!

I am going to throw this out...my knee isn't 100%, the meniscus is still torn and it's not bad enough to need surgery; all my doc & surgeon friends say I shouldn't and don't need it....if I'm not in pain then don't mess with it...sometimes surgery won't help and can make it worse. I'm not in pain, but I hear odd clicking and sometimes it feels weird. If I were to truly listen to my body, it's saying: ride, cycle, spin and maybe elliptical....but if you run on me, I'll make your life miserable. I say, let's push it and see where it goes.

 

[Wrangell]

I am going to throw this out...my knee isn't 100%, the meniscus is still torn and it's not bad enough to need surgery; all my doc & surgeon friends say I shouldn't and don't need it....if I'm not in pain then don't mess with it...sometimes surgery won't help and can make it worse. I'm not in pain, but I hear odd clicking and sometimes it feels weird. If I were to truly listen to my body, it's saying: ride, cycle, spin and maybe elliptical....but if you run on me, I'll make your life miserable. I say, let's push it and see where it goes.

Wouldn't it be more prudent to ' listen to your body ' ?

If your knee still isn't 100% ( post injury ) and it still feels " weird " to run on it, why not hold off on running for awhile till your knee is properly healed and as close to 100% as possible ?

Are you doing any formal rehab ( i.e with a physio ) for your knee as it is now ?

How long did your doc / physio say it would take for your tear to heal properly ?

 

[Dallen]

Never increase both distance and speed.

 

[BikeSwimLaugh]

Wouldn't it be more prudent to ' listen to your body ' ??

Of course. I'd never keep pushing on a sore or injured body.

If your knee still isn't 100% ( post injury ) and it still feels " weird " to run on it, why not hold off on running for awhile till your knee is properly healed and as close to 100% as possible ? ?

It doesn't feel weird to run on. The meniscus is torn and it's questionable as much it'll heal on it's own. They say it just depends on the nature of the tear...if it 'lays-down' it could heal, but right now I occassionally hear a clicking or clacking...my othro-surgeon friend says it's probalby a flap of meniscus that's loose. Oddly enough, the doc's are suggesting not doing any surgery unless it becomes painful or problematic. We're still at a wait & see stage. I think a lot of the damage is from my dirtbike accident some 23 years ago; they can't really discern new from old damage, but they can see a tear that runs all the way from front to back!

Are you doing any formal rehab ( i.e with a physio ) for your knee as it is now ? ?

Yes, I'm currently getting PT....but my same othro-surgeon friend says I'm wasting money at this point. They do some ultra-sound (which feels good), they take measurements (which I'm already at full range of motion) and then he has me run on the treadmill...then some ice. I nor my friend see the value.

How long did your doc / physio say it would take for your tear to heal properly ?

They didn't. The MRI can only show so-so much and the situation/condition doesnt' appear to warrant surgery...so I just do what I do and see where it goes.

All things considered...I think I'm going to keep to light treadmill work between classes. My hunch is that my knee needs a bit more time to heal. The thing is, running at a modest pace does not really involve bending my knee considerably, with each stride I'm just getting about a 45-degree bend and most the impact happens while my leg is just shy of being straight: no issues! The knee pain generally happens when I try to do a squat and put weight/pressure on my left knee...here is where the damage/injury/healing is happening. Running doesn't seem to affect this much....BUT I think I should keep the demand & trauma to the area relatively mild for at least another 4 months.

I'll play it by ear...but absolutely: I will listen to my body!!!!!!! I was just kidding with my earlier post....the term facetious comes to mind.

 

[tjl]

A few people had suggested to deliberately get a pair about 1/2-size larger then normal....any truth that that?

It depends on the shoes. Some running retailer's catalogs note next to shoe listings "size up 1/2 size", "size down one full size", etc. for each model of shoe.

Shoes also may fit differently on your feet.

Running shoes are often categorized as "neutral", "stability", and "motion control" (or "high stability"). Neutral shoes are for those who do not pronate much, while motion control shoes are for severe overpronators. Stability shoes are in between for mild to moderate overpronators.

 

[fit4life1976]

Running

Hey there mate, sounds like you've got a lot on your plate at the moment. Having a problem with your knees isn't the best for training, but, if you're more than happy to carry on training like that, then, who am i to tell you not to? Anyway, some things for you to consider. When you go to the store and they record the way you run, this will show you whether you pronate or supinate or run normally. No matter what happens there, make sure that the shoes they give you are the right ones by recording your running while wearing them. Look for a natural straight line between foot-ankle-knee and take it from there.

The burning of your shines indicates that you suffer from shin splints which is very uncomfortable and very damaging if you insist running with the burning feeling for long. Try alternating jogging and walking for 2 weeks, gradually increasing the minutes you run. For example:

jog 2 minutes, walk 2 minutes for 40 minutes total. If you are better than that try 3 minute jogging, and 1 minute walking, or 5 minutes jogging and 2 or 1 minute walking and progress from there.