Muscle Gain and Fat Loss: The Holy Grail

[TarHeelBred]

So I'm sure this topic has been discussed on numerous accounts in the past in this forum and others (i didnt feel like going through all of them) but is it possible to gain muscle while losing fat? Does doing say cardio on MWF and lifting on Tues,Thurs,Sat work to lose fat while gaining muscles? If it is, is it a simple 50-50 balance or should there be more focus for one side? Im sure results depend on the person but is this plan a viable option? What about taking whey protein? Does that just help you put on muscle or does it add fat to your body as well?

For me, i like to mix run/swim and lifting without having a fixed plan saying Monday's I'll do this and this; Tuesday I'll do that...etc. I feel like thats a little boring but it usually ends up to being split pretty even. I just want to know if doing this will build muscle while losing fat. Certainly it seems possible with those freakish NFL wide receivers so it should work to a certain level with regular people right?

Also, lately Ive really liked running and I've been doing a consistent 5-7 miles per day with the likelihood of increasing mileage. When does the body start burning muscle instead of fat? does it have to do with body fat % or just how hard your workout is?

Know I threw out a lot but hopefull yall can help me out a little!

 

[tic]

It is doable but not easy, definitely not easy to explain to detail as I don't know exactly too well how it is done. Lyle McDonald is an author that wrote about the Ultimate Diet 2 which he outlines how it is pausible. I would recommend reading that book if you really really want to try to lose fat while gaining muscle. It's no fun though, fyi; the diet / routine involved.

As for the NFL receivers, they work hard but also are Genetically gifted. Some folk's body does not hold fat as much and tend to be more lean, purely genetics make-up. It's like having an 8-pack, only few rare people have that muscle composition.

 

[buzz]

lyle macdonald

Gaining muscle while losing fat: The Newbie effect

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Ok, since this seems to come up with some regularity, here are my thoughts on it. I had made a post to mfw a long time bck but it's faster to just retype it here than try to dig through google groups.

The basic question that continues to come up is "How come newbies can gain muscle and lose fat but more advanced guys can't."

First and foremost, I want to point out that only fat newbies can accomplish this, lean guys are not going to lean out significantly while gaining muscle. And I think this points us partly in the right direction.

Way back when, when I first got on the track of leptin (oh, about 98 I think), a lot of what leptin was doing (and note that leptin is related to bodyfat levels) seemed to explain at least part of this. Leptin turned out to be the big missing middle puzzle piece that I"d been looking for for about 10 years.

So consider a fat untrained individual. Because of all of the bodyfat they are carrying, there are a bunch of adapations that have occurred which, given the right stimulus, is going to make them *more effectively* mobilize fat for fuel. I know I"ve discussed this before but now expect a zillion and one questions.

But when you look at that actual adaptations in terms of whole body (especially fat cell) insulin resistance, it's clear that they occur in an attempt to limit further fat gain/help with fat loss once the excess calories are removed. The fat cells are resistant to insulin (meaning insulin can't be anti-lipolytic) leptin would be limiting food intake if the brain weren't resistant, leptin is trying to push fatty acid oxidation (except that muscle is alos resistant), there are tons of fatty acids n the bloodstream just waiting to be burned, &c. So even in the face of high insulin or whatever, fatty acids can be mobilize for fuel.

Read that last sentence again, especially given the role of insulin in muscle growth.

So I think that's the first part of the story. The body is primed to use a lot of fat for fuel under those conditions. Going back to 98, this is actually what led me to leptin, trying to figure out why fatter people can lose fat with less LBM loss compared to lean. So I started looking at the differences physiologically in fat people vs. lean people. And kept coming back to leptin (which I'd been deliberately ignoring for years). Which turns out to be part (but certainly not the entire picture). But I digress.

But it's not the whole story. The other part of it and at this point I get way off into speculation land I think has to do with being relatively more untrained. Everybody knows that beginners respond better to training than anybody else. Primarily because they are so far from their genetic potential. They have more 'room to grow' to put it one way. This is true of everything, first year of any training is when you will make the most massive gains, unless you're training is retarded. And as you get closer to your genetic limits, things start to level off and you reach an asymptote.

And I think that the two factors together are what allow it to happen.

You're in a situation where
a. muscle can be gained quite easily
b. fat can be lost quite easily

Because both are so far below (in the case of muscle) or above (in the case of fat) genetic limits. That's on top of all the hormonal/energetic stuff going on when you're fat. The body is trying to push fatty acids away from storage and towards fat oxidation, even in the face of a relatively anabolic hormonal state.

But a fat but trained individual doesn't have both factors going no. They may have plenty of fat to lose but they don't have a ton of muscle to gain. No newbie effect.

A semi-lean but muscular individual has to drop insulin to mobilize/burn fat for fuel at any effective rate. Which limits their anabolic potential (and this is ignoring all of the stuff going on in the muscle with AMPk and protien synthesis and all that crap). They can lose fat but they can't gain muscle at the same time.

And, in a muscle gaining mode, you're in a net anabolic state anyhow. You can't lose fat and gain muscle at the same time for the most part.

Now quit asking me about this.

 

[tic]

Ahh Buzz, but can you gain Strength while losing fat?

Btw, GREAT write up Buzz. The concept of one's DNA's limitation is a reality pill. No matter how much I train or diet, I will NEVER be as strong as Derek Poundstone (USA's current strongest man).

lyle macdonald does outline a diet / workout program where fat loss can occur while not losing (sometimes gaining) muscle is pausible. But then again, he pretty much split the routine into 3 days of weight loss, 1 day of transition, and 3 days of muscle gain. In the macro sense of 1 week, it was pausible but in term of individual days, it was not; so he kinda "cheated."

I enjoyed reading that detailed post there BUZZ, Thanks man. Really appreciate the whole concept of a sliding scale of genetic potential. Just hope that people won't take it the wrong way and quit all together b/c it's "in their DNA." It is certainly fun to explore / challenge our genetic potential though. Dexter Jackson did. He started bodybuilding competition at 148 lbs and just this year, won Mr. Olympia (competing at 225 lbs, I believe).

 

[buzz]

Ahh Buzz, but can you gain Strength while losing fat

?

that happens quite a lot,most people on a cut say they seem to get stronger.

Really appreciate the whole concept of a sliding scale of genetic potential. Just hope that people won't take it the wrong way and quit all together b/c it's "in their DNA." It is certainly fun to explore

it wasnt intended to do that,and hope it doesnt,everyone can get bigger/better/stronger than they are now,and thats what counts .