Cutting: How do you train?

[sarafo]

I've spent the last 9 months spending 3-4days on weights (split training), and 2 days in the pool (~2-2.5km). I've improved a lot in terms of my cardio fitness as well as strength, but I've put on a fair bit of weight in this time. I thought I'd been eating clean (lean meats etc), but I've put on about 6kg (I'm 19yo female, currently sitting on about 70kg)

I started training as a beginner in Feb, but it can't be possible that this weight is muscle - I'm looking to cut my body fat, but how do I go about this? I know I need to drop my calorie intake to create a deficit, but how do I go about training? Does it all stay the same, or do I put more of an emphasis on cardio? I'm trying to retain my strength levels while cutting body fat - I've tried cutting once before by increasing cardio:weights ratio, and was frustrated by my apparent drop in strength

 

[Streamline]

Like a muthaf ucka.

 

[everypennyspent]

Mix it up, your body is getting too used to the same routine in my opinion. Try to start cycling and jogging or running if you can, also a little high intensity training wouldn't hurt.

 

[[Focus]]

Your question is full of stupid assumptions you adopted in order to doubt yourself. Stop it.

Have you had body fat testing done? Do you *look* 13 lbs "fatter"? Did you take before and after pics? Post them and I'll tell you whether this is the case. But don't bother if you're fully clothed, that's useless.

As for your question, generally speaking, everything stays the same. Most people are not going to gain significant amounts of strength while in a deficit, though. Not if you've been training (consistently?) for 9 months and are already out of "the beginner grace period".

Swimming isn't exactly a good choice for fat burning. I would keep everything the same (depending on what your split routine is - MORE INFO PLEASE ), but kick swimming down to just the 1 day, and add 2-3 days of running and/or biking to mix it up a bit (as per penny's suggestion).

Some people will tell you that you need to be high rep high volume while "cutting", others that you need to be low rep, high intensity, but really, it's just a matter of controlling what you eat, assuming no special conditions. And yes, too much cardio will sap your strength. Meal timing can help with this somewhat, in my experience, but still, overall - the larger the deficit, the larger the loss in strength.

I would take the cardio suggestion I just made, and then spend a few weeks figuring out what your maintenance calories are. Then go just a scooch (10%, say) below that. Or, alternatively, keep doing what you're doing while finding maintenance, and then add in the 2-3 days of new cardio to create a deficit (which would be ideal). This might allow you to maintain your strength gains. It will of course slow down the overall process of shedding fat, but it doesn't sound like this would be an issue. You'll also see a lot of general conditioning improvements, which is always good.

P.S. Did I mention MORE INFO PLEASE? What are you currently eating? How much? How tall are you? Any special conditions? What are you wearing - kidding!

 

[vaecicla]

Like a muthaf ucka.

??? Don't be a n00b hater. She is just trying to improve herself.

To the OP, look in the weight loss section, there is a sticky on fat loss. You need to know some things :-

- dietary intake in calories. To cut you are essentially going to eat below maintenance.
- your current body fat %
- weights and cardio on alternating days is fine no need to "up the cardio". Weights are good because your body has reason to hold on to muscle otherwise we would do tons of cardio and look like a beanpole.

Hope this helps.

 

[sarafo]

Haha thanks for the help!! I'll take that cardio suggestion into practice - so if I don't create too large a deficit, I should see my strength levels maintained? I'm not in any rush to lose fat fast, but of course as long as progress is being made, I'm satisfied, since I feel fairly healthy as it is.

I didn't take before pics, so that won't exactly help...but as for more info, here goes:

I don't think I *look* like i've put on the weight but I'm doubting myself because I have a friend who's a PT who seems to believe that its not muscle. Last...October (approx) I was sitting on about 75kg, dropped down to a low of 64 in about Feb, and when I began training with weights regularly and watched my diet slip a little, I've been slowly creeping up to where I am now.

I've been training consistently, definitely! The three weights sessions have been split into:
Chest/Shoulders/Triceps:
DB Bench Press
DB Flyes (chest)
Machine Chest Press
Arnold Press
DB Shoulder Flyes
Tricep Pushdowns
Tricep Dips or Skullcrushers

Back/Biceps
Wide Grip Lat Pulldowns/Pullups
Cable Machine Rows
One-arm DB Rows
Alternate DB Bicep Curls

Legs
Squats
Stiff-Legged Deadlifts
Leg Press
DB Lunges

All weights are 4x12 reps

The reason I swim twice a week is because I trained in the pool for 10 years with squads, so at the moment (I feel) like its my most effective workout in a one hour period, but am willing to introduce interval training on treadmills etc.

I'm 164cm, 70kg, no special conditions (Except a lingering lower back injury that I need to watch).

Food - I try to eat every few hours or so, and cut the meal size down. Example of my daily intake:
8:30am Cereal with lite soy milk
11am - apple
12:30pm - chicken wrap/chicken with salad
3:30pm - Handful of dry roasted almonds + Cheese and crackers
6:30pm - Pan fried fish or poached chicken + stir fried vegetables
10pm - Tub of reduced fat yoghurt + tea

In between meals I might slot some fruit - I don't limit my fruit intake.

 

[[Focus]]

The three weights sessions have been split into:
Chest/Shoulders/Triceps:
DB Bench Press
DB Flyes (chest)
Machine Chest Press
Arnold Press
DB Shoulder Flyes
Tricep Pushdowns
Tricep Dips or Skullcrushers

Back/Biceps
Wide Grip Lat Pulldowns/Pullups
Cable Machine Rows
One-arm DB Rows
Alternate DB Bicep Curls

Legs
Squats
Stiff-Legged Deadlifts
Leg Press
DB Lunges

All weights are 4x12 reps

I don't like your split. It stinks, imo. Are you willing to mess around with it? I mean you have been doing it for a long time. Do you think you have the recovery capacity/time for a 4-day split? (Upper/Lower, 2 days each per week). 3 would be fine, too, but you'd be missing out on some of the fun athletic stuff.

The reason I swim twice a week is because I trained in the pool for 10 years with squads, so at the moment (I feel) like its my most effective workout in a one hour period, but am willing to introduce interval training on treadmills etc.

You can leave the second day of swimming if you really love it, haha. I was thinking more like a half hour in the 70-75% range on the bike or running laps directly after weight training on 2-3 of those days (two upper body days, ideally).

I'm 164cm, 70kg, no special conditions (Except a lingering lower back injury that I need to watch).

Hmm, okay. RMR should be 1530/day. At your activity level maintenance should be roughly 2400 calories a day. Let's take a look..

Food - I try to eat every few hours or so, and cut the meal size down. Example of my daily intake:
8:30am Cereal with lite soy milk
11am - apple
12:30pm - chicken wrap/chicken with salad
3:30pm - Handful of dry roasted almonds + Cheese and crackers
6:30pm - Pan fried fish or poached chicken + stir fried vegetables
10pm - Tub of reduced fat yoghurt + tea

In between meals I might slot some fruit - I don't limit my fruit intake.

Notice you don't even bother to tell me the portion sizes. This may be your problem. Diet is the very first place to look. So, look to it. Read John Berardi - 7 Rules . Then, set yourself a goal of tracking what and how much you eat every day for the next week (or 3 days - 2 weekdays, and one weekend day - if that seems like too much work). Any time anything at all with calories goes in your mouth, you should be able to tell me how much it was in terms of volume or mass.

Also, stay away from soy, it's poison. Especially for females. Even if you're lactose intolerant, you can make your own "milk" with some protein powder and some sugar.

 

[sarafo]

Really? No soy? Why's that? Just switched to change the flavour but its no prob changing back to normal dairy. That's the split I've been doing, but its been recommended to me to change my 3 gym days to one decent push/pull day, one legs (weights) day, and one day of dynamic leg work (jumping lunges, box jumps etc). I'm more than willing to take advice and change the program, since its not doing what I want it to!

I'm happy do a 4 day split, depending on what the splits are..I generally find it hard to train in the pool after training back in particular, so I try to train it the day after a pool session but again, flexible to change it.

Haha I didn't add in portion sizes because I didn't know how.."small" just doesn't cut it when i'm trying to describe it. But will check out that site now =) Thanks for your advice, its very helpful!

 

[[Focus]]

Really? No soy? Why's that? Just switched to change the flavour but its no prob changing back to normal dairy.

Without going into details, it messes with your hormones in a very bad way, among other things. You may as well just get someone to kick you in the junk until it bleeds, let it get infected, and wait for it to spread to your vital organs. Okay, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but there's no reason to take the stuff. It's only popular because it's easy to produce and versatile. So is alcohol - another poison.

That's the split I've been doing, but its been recommended to me to change my 3 gym days to one decent push/pull day, one legs (weights) day, and one day of dynamic leg work (jumping lunges, box jumps etc). I'm more than willing to take advice and change the program, since its not doing what I want it to!

I'm happy do a 4 day split, depending on what the splits are..I generally find it hard to train in the pool after training back in particular, so I try to train it the day after a pool session but again, flexible to change it.

Okay. I think you should do a modified version of this: | .

As you'll see, it is much more in alignment with what has been suggested to you, what you want, and what is good. I've developed some mods that better suit my physiology, but that's a more personal trial and error sort of a thing.

Haha I didn't add in portion sizes because I didn't know how.."small" just doesn't cut it when i'm trying to describe it. But will check out that site now =) Thanks for your advice, its very helpful!

Buy a food scale (I'd recommend one with a bowl and a tare function) and be obsessive about weighing everything. After a couple months you'll be able to eyeball it with a great degree of accuracy. Well, I can, anyway. ^_^

 

[sarafo]

Haha a food scale! Thats going into an obsessive territory I'm a little scared of entering...however....if I happen to see one, I may just stop to look..

I'll cut the soy then, since its no dramas for me to swap back to normal reduced fat dairy. And I've also managed to cut alcohol consumption way back, much to the dismay of my friends :yelrotflmao:

That article looks really good, its set out very clearly. The days that it recommends max upper/lower body - did I read it correctly when (in laymans terms), its suggesting that I do weights closer to my 1RM for a lower number of reps? I'm only hesitating because I feel like there's a bigger chance of injury here. Should I just give it a try anyway? I'm already one of the only girls in the weights section at my gym, so if I start training heavier I'm expecting more of the 'what is that girl doing in the weights section' looks from some of the people around me haha...

 

[[Focus]]

Haha a food scale! Thats going into an obsessive territory I'm a little scared of entering...however....if I happen to see one, I may just stop to look..

" 'Obsession' is a word people who live mediocre lives use to describe excellence. Psychologists and fatties, mostly." - My friend the Master Psychiatrist.

That article looks really good, its set out very clearly. The days that it recommends max upper/lower body - did I read it correctly when (in laymans terms), its suggesting that I do weights closer to my 1RM for a lower number of reps? I'm only hesitating because I feel like there's a bigger chance of injury here. Should I just give it a try anyway? I'm already one of the only girls in the weights section at my gym, so if I start training heavier I'm expecting more of the 'what is that girl doing in the weights section' looks from some of the people around me haha...

Closer, yeah, but stay in the 5rm range, and your odds of hurting yourself are extremely slim. Also I think most people respond better to this. Even the crazy people never suggest training consistently at 1RM ranges.. only, "near".

People are too afraid of injuries. Also, I will post some links to articles on good form. Basically, if you stay tight and always strict on control, you'll never be hurt, barring some serious overtraining or other methodological errors. And yes, I am taking into consideration your previous injury.

All's I'm sayin' is, reach for the stars, girl. You've got the right attitude. :luxlove: Better to fall on your face and die with one hand full of win than to stand there forever with both hands empty, imo.

Being that one girl who trains "like a man" (as if male and female physiology are different enough for this to be a worthwhile distinction, haha) is what makes you a goddess.

(Yes that last bit was me plagiarizing Alwyn, yet again. This is where Joe and I high-five and do that awkward little bro chest hug, awwww yeah. 'Sup, buddy. :action10: Alwyn :action10: .)

 

[sarafo]

That's an awesome quote, I'll be using that in the future

I'll definitely give this new split a try. Is there a way to accurately calculate your 1RM so I can adjust the weight accordingly, or is it just a bit of trial and error to choose a weight that I can max 5 reps? I'm in a lot better overall shape than I was when I had my previous injury, which I got as a result of overtraining when I was too young (we're talking 10 sessions of training a week but i was 15) so as long as I have faith in my form, I'm happy to train heavier if the risk of injury is low.

The good thing though, is that I'm motivated to train as hard as I need to - the bad thing is that diet is arguably more important to progress than your time in the gym so I need to work on both. But really, your help has been great! Rep ++

 

[[Focus]]

That's an awesome quote, I'll be using that in the future

Tbh I made it up, but feel free.

I'll definitely give this new split a try. Is there a way to accurately calculate your 1RM so I can adjust the weight accordingly, or is it just a bit of trial and error to choose a weight that I can max 5 reps?

Just pick a weight you think you might be able to do for 5x5 (almooost kinda feeling like you could fail on the last rep of the last set or definitely if you had to do another, and not going to failure on any of the rest). Won't take long to figure it out.

The good thing though, is that I'm motivated to train as hard as I need to - the bad thing is that diet is arguably more important to progress than your time in the gym so I need to work on both.

Ain't nothin' to it but to get on the floor and do it do it. Or something.

 

[Streamline]

??? Don't be a n00b hater. She is just trying to improve herself.

I just answered the thread title.

 

[vaecicla]

How are you getting on sarafo? I had a subscription to this thread but that might be coz I haven't logged on in a while.

 

[malkore]

food scales are NOT obsessive. how the hell do you know how much you're eating?

when you bake a cake, do you measure the ingredients or just eyeball everything? you measure.

so why would you eyeball your food intake? sure there are some guidelines for portion control, but its a lot simpler to know that you cooked exactly 2oz of pasta, and not guess its 2oz when really its 2.5 or 3.35oz

as far as training goes...lift heavy for lower reps when cutting is my advice. give the body a reason to keep the muscle. a lot of muscle is NOT evolutionarily advantageous...it requires more maintenace calories and protein to keep it than if you didn't have it, so when cutting the body may decide to waste muscle due to calories going under maintenance.

that's why you don't wanna go too much below maintenance, and instead find ways to burn more calories, feed the muscle, and get the body to tap into the fat stores for the energy needed for exercise. (that's the simplified version of cutting)

 

[sarafo]

Hey hey....things are going fairly well, actually!
Since I posted here I've dropped 1.5-2kg..(only just weighed myself yesterday actually).
As far as training goes, I'm still in the gym 6-7 days a week, changed my split to upper and lower body training. 3-4 sessions of weights (2 moderate-heavy, and 2 light-moderate), and 3-4 sessions of cardio. As far as weights training goes...I've taken out a lot of the isolation exercises and replaced them with compound or more core based exercises just to keep everything maintained. Its worked well so far - strength levels are the same, while dropping weight..and with that comes definition!

As for diet...I found that I was way too easily overeating by eating smaller meals frequently. So dropped my meals down to 4 meals a day, but keeping an eye on portion size (still fairly roughly mind you, still not weighing food - malkore, I'm going to be a smartass here and say that I don't actually weigh ingredients that go into cakes, and they still turn out fine :costumed5