Abs, Cavs, & Power lifting

M

Muck

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From what I've heard and read, cavs and abs are unlike the other muscle groups in how they are trained effectively. I've usually read that higher reps than normal are necessary for these muscle groups, but since I'm primarily training for strength, I'm curious how this works with trying to develop fast twitch muscle.

I'm also looking to add olympic lifts (primarily the snatch) into my normal routine. Since this is a power lift, I imagine I have to keep the reps around 3 for maximum effect.. Should I be mixing this lift into training periods when I'm lifting for strength and hypertrophy or only do this lift when I'm in a power developing period of my cycle. I want to give adequate rest to my cns by cycling power and max strength lifts with higher rep periods.. but I don't think these power specific exercises have any other way of doing them. For example, I can be benching for 8 reps and have a slow and controlled motion during a hypertrophy phase, and do speed or ballistic bench during a power cycle which differentiates the same motion. But for a snatch, it's inherently a fast and powerful motion or you can't complete it... so how do I cycle this like I would with other exercises or should I just not be doing it during a hypertrophy or strength phase?

Thanks for any insight!
 
I've never heard of someone go back and forth from strength training to hypertrophy training, very interesting though... And I'm not to sure that the difference between the two workouts you describe will be enough to see a clear difference in gains from the other.. Just curious, but what are your goals? Are you training for a specific sport or competition?
 
I wouldn't mess with super-high reps for abs.Train them like any other muscle group.Try decline crunches (with a 25ib plate across your chest) and back extensions (with a 25ib plate held to your chest), 5-8 reps per set.If you still feel this isn't enough work then throw in some isometric work by pausing at the top of each and every rep and squeezing the muscle with maximum tension for 2-5 seconds.

Re snatches, if you are doing power snatches (bar taken from the floor and catching the weight overhead while dipping into a partial squat) then I would do lots of sets of 2-4 reps with a moderately heavy weight to build strength.If you want to keep doing snatches during a hypertrophy phase, then eliminate the starting position of the lift and jump the reps up to 5-8 per set.Instead of starting each rep with the bar on the floor, start with the bar at your hips and lower it no further than just below knee level on each rep.These are called "hang snatches" and work great for higher reps than power or squat snatches.
 
Thanks Ballast! So you work abs like you would any other muscle. What about the calves?

Actually, I meant the clean, not the snatch. The problem I saw with using the hang start, is that it doesn't engage the lower body in the same way does it? I'll probably be using a wide grip and starting in a deeper position to use more of the lower body. So would using the hang do the same thing for me?

mreik, I'm using something similiar to this: http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=E98368A08CA6128615D1E2DE3B740EA1.titan?id=471208

Using a 4 phase structure that's somewhat similiar here. I won't be breaking down the concentric, essentric, and isometric like he does, but I will have the weeks flowing like he does. Starting with a hypertrophy (6-8 reps, slower, no exhaustion) phase, strength (3-5 reps), power (1-3 reps), speed (3 reps ~50% 1RM as fast as possible along with ballistic and plyometrics). I always followed the standard pyramid style periodization where you start with like 12 reps, and work your way down over a course of months and then start over. I don't want to wait that long inbetween types and lose what I gained from each type, so I'm hoping this works better with that.

My general goal is fitness and athletic improvement w/ basketball. I do want to gain some muscle to help with metabolism, so I don't want to totally disregard hypertrophy training, but I want most of the focus on fuctional improvement.
 
Muck said:
What about the calves?

Actually, I meant the clean, not the snatch. The problem I saw with using the hang start, is that it doesn't engage the lower body in the same way does it? I'll probably be using a wide grip and starting in a deeper position to use more of the lower body. So would using the hang do the same thing for me?
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The only thing I have found that works really well for building up the calves is sprints, especially hill sprints.If you are training for basketball, then you should be doing a fair amount of sprints/shuttle runs anyway, so I wouldn't worry about doing any calf work in the weight room.At most, some rope skipping as a warm-up.

The hang position can apply to cleans as well as snatches, so if you are after hypertrophy, I would still stick with hang cleans.The problem with doing the full lift (power or squat style cleans/snatches) for high reps is that because these lifts involve so many muscle groups and are of an explosive nature, your form rapidly deteriorates as the fatigue from higher reps sets in.Form breakdown can easily lead to injuries.

Starting the lift from the hang, cuts the range-of-motion down which will compensate for the higher reps/fatigue.I wouldn't worry about lower body involvement if you are doing your squats, which will tax your legs and hips plenty, especially if you are doing sprints as well.
 
ballast said:
The only thing I have found that works really well for building up the calves is sprints.
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What????? I hope that when you say "sprints" you acctually mean "calf raises".
 
Ballast hit on some excellent points. I had remarked earlier that high pulls and deadlifts have done more for my calf development than anything else but I had forgotten about my sprinting days. I've tried calf raises on the leg press and on the machines and neither has done zilch for my calves.

You might experiment with conjugate periodization where you work all phases at the same time. This method has worked well for the Westside Barbell, Diabolo Barbell, and the Midwest Barbell groups (along with all the other barbell clubs). They have their set up as a max strength day-speed day-max strength day-speed day. They have started to incorporate rep days as well which targets more toward the hypertrophy aspect.

Also, the amount of volume you would use and how you will set up your strength training will depend on whether you are in-season or off-season. So, my question is what portion of your season are you in and what sort of lifting do you do with the team? Also, how many days a week do you have access to lifting?
 
I'll try that with the cleans then, thanks much.

I've read about conjugate periodization, but that hasn't sounded good to me. I have 4 different phases I want to have, and I also prefer a split routine. That would mean at least 8 days inbetween working an area and I don't think that would be adequate for me. I think if I was just working hypertrophy or strength, it might work better. From what I read the results were amazing, but there was also a quick burnout due to the high intensity throughout. Maybe I'll have to try it at some point.

I'm not on a team, I'm 27. I play in rec leagues and such all year round though, so I never really have an off-season. I usually have games two days a week, and I lift the other 5. I just started working out again about half a year ago as well, and I had ballooned up to 270. I'm 220 now, but still have another 30 lbs to lose. I've managed to get quite a bit stronger while continuing to lose weight, so I'm happy with that.. but I imagine as I continue I'll start to struggle with gaining strength and losing weight at the same time.
 
manofkent said:
What????? I hope that when you say "sprints" you acctually mean "calf raises".
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No, I meant actual sprints.But, keep in mind I am basing this observation off of personal experience.I'm sure calf raises work great for lots of people but my calves grew noticeably bigger very quickly once I started on a steady routine of 100m hill sprint repeats and 400m interval sprints and the 14 years or so I worked them in the weight room showed very little in the way of growth.

I hate to always refer to athletes physiques but I think it is valid.Check out any athlete, at any level, whose sport requires numerous sprints, short or long-distance; track and field runners, soccer players, etc.Most have fairly well developed calves.I think a lot of it has to do with the explosive nature required in sprinting which affects the fast-twitch muscle fibers (if I remember physiology class).I also believe that you must stretch the calves frequently for them to grow.
 
Thats quite interesting cos I did it the other way round. I used to do a lot of hill sprints and I never saw any change (poss because I was not following a muscle growth diet.)
However I see gains is size every few weeks since I started heavy calf raises (14months).
 
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