Fat loss/muscle gain phenomenon

I have a question regarding the opinion that you cannot effectively build muscle while losing fat. I understand the logic and science behind both- more calories needed for muscle growth and less for fat loss. However, I'm curious how it is not viable to do both simultaneously.
Humor me...
If you have a good diet- high protein, low fat, is it not possible to burn off more calories than you are taking in-effectively losing weight- while at the same time having an overload (150grams/day) of protein that is sufficient enough to sustain/grow muscle strength and size at the same time?
The reason im asking is i am in the process of finishing a wight loss stage (getting rid of the last 2 years of benge beer drinking), yet i still have a little fat loss to go, but very little. I would like to shed the left ovedr 2 or so pounds from the gut area over time, while effectively weight training for strength/size. Im not talking a bulking stage where i overload on calories, just a strengthening while increasing lean muscle mass.
My workout now consists of 3 days of HIIT cardio, which is transitioning into interval/distance training for 5k preparation, as well as 3 days of weight training (push/pull). One of the cardio days overlaps with a lifting day where i do an overdistance run and core strengthening the same day, giving me two days off.
LONG STORY SHORT (or to an end), isn't it possible to shed fat/gain muscle simultaneously?
Id appreciate an answer other than the calorie surplus/calorie deficit argument if possible.
THANKS IN ADVANCE!
 
Gaining muscle while losing fat: The Newbie effect by lyle macdonald

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Ok, since this seems to come up with some regularity, here are my thoughts on it. I had made a post to mfw a long time bck but it's faster to just retype it here than try to dig through google groups.

The basic question that continues to come up is "How come newbies can gain muscle and lose fat but more advanced guys can't."

First and foremost, I want to point out that only fat newbies can accomplish this, lean guys are not going to lean out significantly while gaining muscle. And I think this points us partly in the right direction.

Way back when, when I first got on the track of leptin (oh, about 98 I think), a lot of what leptin was doing (and note that leptin is related to bodyfat levels) seemed to explain at least part of this. Leptin turned out to be the big missing middle puzzle piece that I"d been looking for for about 10 years.

So consider a fat untrained individual. Because of all of the bodyfat they are carrying, there are a bunch of adapations that have occurred which, given the right stimulus, is going to make them *more effectively* mobilize fat for fuel. I know I"ve discussed this before but now expect a zillion and one questions.

But when you look at that actual adaptations in terms of whole body (especially fat cell) insulin resistance, it's clear that they occur in an attempt to limit further fat gain/help with fat loss once the excess calories are removed. The fat cells are resistant to insulin (meaning insulin can't be anti-lipolytic) leptin would be limiting food intake if the brain weren't resistant, leptin is trying to push fatty acid oxidation (except that muscle is alos resistant), there are tons of fatty acids n the bloodstream just waiting to be burned, &c. So even in the face of high insulin or whatever, fatty acids can be mobilize for fuel.

Read that last sentence again, especially given the role of insulin in muscle growth.

So I think that's the first part of the story. The body is primed to use a lot of fat for fuel under those conditions. Going back to 98, this is actually what led me to leptin, trying to figure out why fatter people can lose fat with less LBM loss compared to lean. So I started looking at the differences physiologically in fat people vs. lean people. And kept coming back to leptin (which I'd been deliberately ignoring for years). Which turns out to be part (but certainly not the entire picture). But I digress.

But it's not the whole story. The other part of it and at this point I get way off into speculation land I think has to do with being relatively more untrained. Everybody knows that beginners respond better to training than anybody else. Primarily because they are so far from their genetic potential. They have more 'room to grow' to put it one way. This is true of everything, first year of any training is when you will make the most massive gains, unless you're training is retarded. And as you get closer to your genetic limits, things start to level off and you reach an asymptote.

And I think that the two factors together are what allow it to happen.

You're in a situation where
a. muscle can be gained quite easily
b. fat can be lost quite easily

Because both are so far below (in the case of muscle) or above (in the case of fat) genetic limits. That's on top of all the hormonal/energetic stuff going on when you're fat. The body is trying to push fatty acids away from storage and towards fat oxidation, even in the face of a relatively anabolic hormonal state.

But a fat but trained individual doesn't have both factors going no. They may have plenty of fat to lose but they don't have a ton of muscle to gain. No newbie effect.

A semi-lean but muscular individual has to drop insulin to mobilize/burn fat for fuel at any effective rate. Which limits their anabolic potential (and this is ignoring all of the stuff going on in the muscle with AMPk and protien synthesis and all that crap). They can lose fat but they can't gain muscle at the same time.

And, in a muscle gaining mode, you're in a net anabolic state anyhow. You can't lose fat and gain muscle at the same time for the most part.
 
A little more seriously

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From the never to be finished project, something I wrote a long while back about this

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Gaining muscle/losing fat
If there’s a single question that comes up more often than any other it’s along the lines of “How can I gain muscle and lose fat?” And the general answer is “Unless you’e a beginner or coming back off of a layoff, you can’t.” I know, I’ve given it myself enough times. Actually, I’ve previously said it was impossible but that’s not entirely true and I wish to retract every time in the past that I’ve said it. It is possible in a few specific circumstances but let’s look at them individually before adressing the question itself.

Beginners have a notorious propensity for gaining reasonable amounts of muscle while losing fat at the same time; I’ve seen it enough times first hand. Actually, it turns out not to be beginners per se but rather fat beginners. A lean individual who is starting out in training isn’t going to lose fat while they gain muscle. In someone with relatively average bodyfat levels, a loss of 5-10 lbs of fat and gains of 3-4 lbs of muscle over the first 8 weeks is quite common with even the most basic routine. And, as it turns out, the bodyfat issue isn’t a trivial one. As you’ll learn in upcoming chapters, a higher bodyfat percentage makes fat mobilization easier. As well, a beginner doesn’t have a lot of muscle mass to begin with, so they find it easier to make gains. So gains of muscle along with fat loss is not uncommon. Once you get to a certain level of leanness and/or muscle mass, the odds of this occurring go down at a staggering rate.

Folks returning from a layoff can get amazing results like this as well. Muscle memory is a very real phenomenon and, empirically, it seems like folks who were once lean (especially genetically) can get lean again with less effort. This is actually how most of the magical before/after photo comparisons in the magazines are done. Someone will start in amazing shape, deliberately get into bad shape by eating like crap and not training, and then let muscle memory get them BACK into shape rapidly. That is, they aren’t getting into shape but rather getting BACK into shape in those photo spreads. I shouldn’t have to tell you that every before/after photo shoot involving a pro-bodybuilder means that an absolute crapload of drugs were involved: any supplement they are claiming to have used played no role in it.

I should mention that drugs can cause simultaneous fat loss and muscle gain as well. In non-users, low-dose testosterone can cause a repartitioning effect (gains in muscle with a loss of fat). Clenbuterol has the reputation for almost magical makeovers, at least until it stops working in 2 weeks. Growth hormone injections tends to cause profound fat loss and a gain in lean body mass but studies show that the LBM gained is mostly connective tissue and water, not actual muscle. Since this book is primarily about non-drug solutions to body recomposition, I mention this only for completeness.

So what about everybody else, can you gain muscle while losing fat at the same time. A lot of it depends on what may seem like rather semantic/pedantic issue.
Fundamentally, the question of “Can I gain fat and lose muscle at the same time?” comes down to an issue of how much; that is, how much of each are you trying to gain or lose respectively? You can also make an issue out of the phrase ‘same time’ in coming to your answer.

For example, if you looked at someone alternating phases of muscle gain and fat loss over a year, they’d have obviously gained muscle and lost fat at the ‘same time’: one year. Even someone who is alternating 2-3 week periods of fat loss with 2-3 week periods of weight gain will be, technically speaking, gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time (i.e. over a 6 week span). But they’re doing it by alternating individual phases (fat loss OR muscle gain). As well, it’s usually possible to gain small amounts of muscle while losing small amounts of fat at the same time. You can do this with cyclical diets for example. I’ll talk more about those later.

I also know of folks who accomplish this by using tiny caloric deficit (i.e. 200 cal/day below maintenance) and severe micromanaging of nutrient intake. Reports of a few pounds of muscle gained while losing a few pounds of fat over 12-16 weeks are what you typically hear. Even they admit that it tends to drive them completely insane and I just can’t see the point of going to that much trouble for such a minimal overall gain. In those same 12-16 weeks, coupling an actual diet where maximal fat loss was the goal, with an actual weight gain phase where maximal muscle gain was the goal, would result in better results without the psychotic need for micromanaging the diet.

But these aren’t really what people are asking. When someone asks “Can I lose muscle and gain fat at the same time?” what they generally mean is “Can I lose 20 lbs of fat and gain 10-20 lbs of muscle in a few month span?” Seriously, I’ve gotten questions where people were hoping for those kinds of results. They usually hide it in body composition numbers (or don’t realize what they are trying to achieve), wanting to go from 200 lbs at 20% bodyfat to 200 lbs at 10% bodyfat in 12 weeks, which represents a loss of 20 lbs of fat and a gain of 20 lbs of muscle over that time span. To that, the answer is ‘Absolutely not, unless you take a ****load of drugs.’

A related comment comes when folks state “I want to lose fat without losing any weight.” Well, see, here’s the problem: fat has mass (and hence weight). The only way to lose fat without losing bodyweight is to replace every pound of fat lost with a pound of muscle in a 1:1 ratio. Alternately, someone might want to gain muscle without increasing weight. Again, we’re faced with the basic problem that muscle has weight, to maintain a stable weight while gaining muscle would require fat to be lost in a 1:1 ratio. It’s a lovely idea, but it’s quite unlikely to happen. Impossible? No, I’m sure someone will manage to do it. Improbable? Yes.

To put it bluntly, if you want to lose a considerable amount of fat, your odds of gaining even small amounts of muscle are fairly small. Depending on your starting bodyfat percentage, the best you might achieve is not losing any muscle (or only losing a pound or two). If you’re trying to reach super leanness, you may sacrifice considerable muscle getting there. Someone trying to diet to 7% bodyfat is not going to gain muscle while doing it, not without drugs. By a similar token, if you want to gain a lot of muscle (or gain it at a reasonable rate), the odds of losing a lot of fat are pretty minimal. The odds of losing any fat at all are, quite honestly, fairly slim. At best you would gain only a small amount of fat. Odds are, unless you’re genetically blessed or very lucky, you’ll gain quite a bit of fat
 
Thanks for the info buzz...it gave the insight i was looking for for hte question asked. More importantly, i should have asked a different question. How about fat loss and STRENGTH gain, as in an increase in muscle fiber recruitement while losing fat, as opposed to "muscle gain". Can someone performa routine weight lifting weight loss program and increase strength, ie. muscle recruitment? Say with supersetting, or HIIT weight training. It causes an increase in metabolism, all while throwing weights around the gym like some sort of maniac. Thanks.
 
alot of people report strength gains while on a cut.
but recruiting more fibres etc wont gain you any more muscle,if your not in surplus cals.
 
spot on...thanks buzz..size isnt as much an issue for me personally as I am a 5k runner. But looking good as opposed to "like a frail and thin runner" might help. No one ever says "damn, that runner's sexy!"
 
spot on...thanks buzz..size isnt as much an issue for me personally as I am a 5k runner. But looking good as opposed to "like a frail and thin runner" might help. No one ever says "damn, that runner's sexy!"

5k isnt like running a marathon though ie you dont have to put in massive amounts of milage,you probably do sprints/intervals and maybe one long run a wk,as long as you do some resistance work and eat and recover well i cant see why you shouldnt have an athletic looking physique.
 
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