Shoulder Question

C

cantflysolo

0
Hey everyone,
I found this site and am very impressed at the positive attitude and knowledge everyone has. Now that I joined I might as well ask right off the bat my first question. What are the best lifts for shoulders? I have never really gotten good results from my work on this part before. I recently started lifting again after over one year of not, and things always went well everywhere else but shoulders. Ideas?
Some personal info:
27 years old
previously lifted for 5 years before 1+ year off
Weight before was 155 Currently 180
I maintain a good diet
I use whey protein, creatine, L glutamine, NO Xplod, and ZMA before bed.
Since I'm asking, are there better supps than what I am taking or are these reasonable. Thanks
Scott
 
There is no one or few exercises to get perfect shoulders. You need to first acknowledge that there are three parts to the shoulder, anterior, medial, and posterior heads.

So in order to work them, you need exercises that work these three heads. For anterior, it would be something like...frontal raises or military press. Medial is something like lateral raises, and posterior is posterior dumbell fly's. Figure out the best combination of exercises that work for you.

Go here for exercise listings, it just doesn't tell you which heads it works, but it's a start.
 
For side delts: One exercise that has worked for me in the past is wide grip dumbell upright rows. start with the dumbells in front of your legs, lean forward a little bit and pull up and out so the dumbells end up outs side of your chest at the top of the movement. Obviously dont go so wide that it feels uncomfortable.

I read about these in Ironman Magazine a few years ago. Heres what i could find on the net about them. They even talk about an incline 1 arm version.


For front delts i do military presses with a barbell and Incline Bench Press.

Good luck and welcome to the forum. :action11:
 
limestix said:
Military press is god for shoulders. Chins and pullups also build your shoulders more than you might think
Click to expand...

Checking to see if I got this right. Chinups are palms facing you and work your biceps more. Pullups are palms away from you and work your back more.

Yes?
 
Dumbell front & side raises, and shrugs. stay away from overhead presses, as these will eventually cause shoulder injury requiring surgery! :)
 
stay away from overhead presses, as these will eventually cause shoulder injury requiring surgery
Click to expand...

I think you must be doing them wrong, but i do agree behind the neck presses too much is no good
 
yi5hedr3 said:
Dumbell front & side raises, and shrugs. stay away from overhead presses, as these will eventually cause shoulder injury requiring surgery! :)
Click to expand...

Yes, there are some experienced trainers and others that hold this opinion.

I have had only one exercise cause some major joint pain in my shoulders--when I was experiencing problems with them very early in my training, and this was the Upright Row.

Then I just got smarter, and developed shoulder girdle exercises into my program, and dropped the Upright Row exercise (my shoulders simply didn't like the position the exercise was putting them in).

I am nearly 50 years old, and if anyone (biologically) was going to have joint and or tendon pain (when training with weights regularly) its going to be one in my age bracket.

I presently..........HAVE NONE, and I press over head.

This doesn't mean that some can press overhead due to the shoulder genetic composition and/or other physical complications.

Even with a well-designed full body routine, the "shoulders" simply take a beating (think about it), and considering this, they hold up pretty damn well for most people. However, one that trains hard, there is a high probability, that one is going to experience an injury or joint pain at some point during their training life.

For my shoulders, I have used combinations of:

1. The Military Press (heavy, 190-200 lbs, for reps, more than I weigh)

2. DB Military Press

3. Side Laterals

4. Rear Flyes

5. And, yes.....The Renegade row (it recruits the rear deltoid rather heavily, and I use about 80+ pound DB's for reps). I love this exercise, it can be a killer.

6. Maintenance: Shoulder girdle strengthening exercises (off days), and Static holds.

Best wishes,

Chillen
 
Last edited:
cantflysolo said:
I maintain a good diet
Click to expand...

What does this mean? This means different things to different people.

What are your calories? Have you determined what you need?


I use whey protein, creatine, L glutamine, NO Xplod, and ZMA before bed.
Since I'm asking, are there better supps than what I am taking or are these reasonable. Thanks
Scott
Click to expand...

Keep the Whey Protein.

Creatine is fine. And just be mindful of the side effects of Mono, if you are taking this version--in the event you may experience them.

Drop the L-Glutamine, NO Xplod.

L-Glutamine is an Amino Acid,(and if you do a research on it) has a so-called laundry list of benefits when supplemented. But you cannot trust everything you read.

However, I am not sold on this supplement at the present time, and am still in the "education" mode (weeding out the CRAP), before I decide (for myself) whether this is a useful supplement to suggest to someone asking on it.

Some can claim nearly anything on a supplement. Doesn't make it so, and I am concerned with the validity of such claims. It is safe (in terms of side effects) for most people.

I would replace the ZMA with just a good old fashioned.....Vitamin tablet.

IMO, I would add Flax and/or Fish oil, and make sure yo get your EFA's.


Best of luck,

Chillen
 
Last edited:
Karky said:
How many times do you rep 200 lbs Chillen? That's pretty impressive for your size!
Click to expand...

Its my max, really, as I am working extremely close to it, in my bulk.

I get about 1 1/2 (LOL). Whats weird, is I can wait about 30 seconds, and do the same amount, if I wait longer its the same.....what the heck is up with that? :angry3: And, this is when "fresh" and no sets before it.

I am working extremely heavy at the moment RP-4's 20 sec, (185, 5, 190, 3, 190, 2, 190, 1, with the max rep out being 15) before I up the first set (185). If I don't improve, I have a price to pay, and its severe to say the least.

EDIT: Whats also weird is my Incline press (to me) is crap-ola (it uses more of the front delt), but flat bench press is very good, as a side notation.

Best wishes,

Chillen
 
Last edited:
I guess I should have explained that more about my diet. My food intake for a day is mostly oatmeal, yogurt, chicken breast, and vegetables. To be honest I've never really taken a "vitamin", mainly because I have no idea what would be worth it. I have taken fish oil before, and I will definetely be getting a bottle. I usually purchase whey protein from GNC, I don't care about the taste as long as its what I need. I supplement my protein for pop at work about 4 times a day so 4 separate servings. I will admit I drink pop and I know its just empty worthless calories so I am working on that. Other than that if you could give me any more guidance I would very much appreciate it. And thank you for the posts so far.
 
wesrman said:
This is why i do them with dumbells.
Click to expand...

The Upright Row caused me many months of pain in my shoulders, and many months of babying/nursing them back to their capability and function capacity. It was both the worst and the best period of my training, but it was worth it, as they can flat kick some ass right now.

Personally, I do not like pressing behind the neck, and perform the MP in full range of motion in the front.

I bring the BB all the way down to my chest, and then extend at the top. However, I have a small twist at the top of the movement, I perform at "each rep". I bring the BB down just even with my forehead, and push up twice, and then bring the BB down the chest, and this is one rep. In other words, I start from the chest position (in front of the clavicle), push up, then let it down to the point of my forehead, and perform 2 halves, and then bring it back down to the starting position and repeat.


Best wishes

Chillen
 
Chillen said:
In other words, I start from the chest position (in front of the clavicle), push up, then let it down to the point of my forehead, and perform 2 halves, and then bring it back down to the starting position and repeat.


Best wishes

Chillen
Click to expand...
Wow that must be great for the tris also.
 
wesrman said:
Wow that must be great for the tris also.
Click to expand...

Yes, this is the point. And, the additional point is, I probably could push out an extra rep or two (if I removed the 2 halves) from the MP working set. And tri's normally follow Shoulder work, in my program. The time difference between Shoulders and tri's are: 3 minutes. Yes, I track time between body parts :)

Set of "example" MP's would look like:

185X5(2), 190x3(2), 190X2 (1--p, 1). The last set means: I made two reps, I didn't make 2 halves on the last. So I bared the weight, and waited 10 seconds, and grunted one full one out). And, yes, I am training this heavy--low rep at the present.

EDIT: Since I am starting my journal 2morrow, I am just opening up on my routine a bit, more than normal.

Best wishes

Chillen
 
Last edited:
cantflysolo said:
Hey everyone,
I found this site and am very impressed at the positive attitude and knowledge everyone has. Now that I joined I might as well ask right off the bat my first question. What are the best lifts for shoulders? I have never really gotten good results from my work on this part before. I recently started lifting again after over one year of not, and things always went well everywhere else but shoulders. Ideas?

Some personal info:
27 years old
previously lifted for 5 years before 1+ year off
Weight before was 155 Currently 180
I maintain a good diet
I use whey protein, creatine, L glutamine, NO Xplod, and ZMA before bed.
Since I'm asking, are there better supps than what I am taking or are these reasonable. Thanks
Scott
Click to expand...

cantflysolo said:
I guess I should have explained that more about my diet. My food intake for a day is mostly oatmeal, yogurt, chicken breast, and vegetables. To be honest I've never really taken a "vitamin", mainly because I have no idea what would be worth it. I have taken fish oil before, and I will definetely be getting a bottle. I usually purchase whey protein from GNC, I don't care about the taste as long as its what I need. I supplement my protein for pop at work about 4 times a day so 4 separate servings. I will admit I drink pop and I know its just empty worthless calories so I am working on that. Other than that if you could give me any more guidance I would very much appreciate it. And thank you for the posts so far.
Click to expand...

You are welcome.

You really didn't state specifically what your goals were. What are they?

What ever your goal is, the diet is cornerstone of your fitness plans. And, understanding what you need (in calories and macro nutrients) are as important as the air you breathe everyday :))).

So, I am going to provide a mountain of information for you.

Calculate your calories, and post them. And be more specific about your goals, and we will try to help on a routine arrangement.

This post will also help you (guide you) in what you should be eating.

GNC is generally overpriced (in my opinion), and you could do better buying your Whey Protein Powder else where.


Here is some information on: Carbs, Protein, Fats, and Fiber

The Human Brain - Carbohydrates

What are Carbohydrates?

What You Need to Know Before You Start a Low Carbohydrate Diet
(and other info)

Carbohydrates
(this one may be a tad over-kill for the average person)

=============================================

Some info on Protein:

John Berardi - Protein Super Feature

Everything you need to know about protein

Protein: Nutrition Source, Harvard School of Public Health

=============================================

Some info on Fats:

What You Need to Know about Fat and Your Family's Diet - Family Articles - Kaboose.com


Fats 101: How to tell Good Fats and Bad Fats


Fats, Fish Oil and Omega-3-Fatty Acids - Cholesterol Information Produced by Doctors For Patients Experiencing High Cholesterol Levels

(and other GOOD info)

Fat

================================================

Some info on Fiber:

Dietary Fiber

Difference between soluable and insoluable Fiber:

The difference is primary that soluable fiber can dissolve (but not entirely) in the bowel (and is the culprit for some people getting the "stinky gas" :)) when consumed, while insoluable fiber can absorb a lot of water and isnt broken down as easily.

A couple of links for additional info:

Fiber 101: Soluble Fiber vs Insoluble Fiber

High Fiber Diet

=========================================================

Various EXCELLENT John Berardi Nutrition Articles (a MUST READ):

John Berardi - Nutrition Articles

=========================================================

An Article on Diet and Cheating by John Berardi:

Bodybuilding.com - John Berardi - Damage Control: To Cheat Or Not To Cheat!

=========================================================

Solving the Pre and Post Workout Nutrition Puzzle, John Berardi:

Bodybuilding.com - John Berardi - Solving The Post Workout Puzzle - Part One!

Bodybuilding.com - John Berardi - Solving The Post Workout Puzzle: Part 2 - The Recovery Plan.

=========================================================

Within the Nutrition 101 thread you will find some valuable information. Or you can use the ready made input web page in the 2nd link.

What you to do is to post your Maintenance Line of calories and list the multiplier you used to configure your approximated Maintenance Line.

Go here and read on some basic and fundamental information:

Nutrition 101

Delaware Consumer Health Information Services (Originally Posted by Wrangell)

Weight Training Information:

Weight Training 101


Weight Training Technical Articles

http://training.fitness.com/weight-...inefficient-split-maybe-read-first-34522.html


==================================================
Some Info on the ab core:

Abdominal Training


How to get abs guide

==================================================
Go here for some thoughts on the mental side:

Weight Loss Intricate


The ChillOut Log by Chillen
(allot of pages to go through, but there IS good information that may help you if you take the time to seek it)
===================================================

All of the links, plus additional links (Not Listed here) that you may be interested in are in this link below:

http://training.fitness.com/new-member-intro/where-begin-all-info-links-18741.html

====================================================

Change your eating habits (below are some suggestion examples)


The 3 Nutrients (Carbs, Good Fats, and Protein) are an essential factor in the diet; however, the Law of Energy Balance within the DIET, is the ultimate KING while the Nutrients can play in some key decisions made within the body.


○ Try eating 5 to 6 smaller meals during the day

○ Balance your meals out during the day so in one day you have a mix of Protein, Carbohydrate and good Fats

○ Drink lots of water during the day and before, during and after exercise

○ Simple Carb Examples: (Various fruit) Grapefruit, Watermelon, Cantaloupe, Strawberries, Oranges, Apples, Pineapple, etc

○ Complex Carb Examples: Whole Wheat Pita Bread, Oatmeal, Long Grain Brown Rice, Brown Pasta, Malto-Meal (Plain, whole wheat),etc

○ Good Protein Examples: White or Dark Tuna, Chicken Breast, Lean Turkey, Lean Ham, Very lean Beef, Quality Whey Protein Powder, etc

○ Good Fats Examples: Natural Peanut Butter, Various Nuts, Flax Seed, Fish Oils.

○ Dietary Fiber: Whole Grains (Bran), Some fruits (like Apples), and vegetables, nuts and seeds

Dietary Fiber

ROOT VEGETABLES: beets, sweat potatoes, yams

GREEN VEGETABLES: asparagus, broccoli, brussel sprouts, cucumber, field greens, mixed salad greens, green beans, romaine lettuce, snap peas, and spinach

OTHER VEGETABLES: bell peppers, carrots, celery, eggplant, mushrooms, soybeans, squash, tomatoes, organic (low sodium) vegetable soup (be careful in the selection).


=========================================================

Suggestions on various cereals:


1. Steel Cut Oats, Old Fashioned Cut Oats, and Regular Cut Oats (quick cook type), in large containers.

2. Various types of Go Lean Kashi cereals. (Some dont like them, but I dont share this opinion).

3. Fiber-One. (60 calories per 1/2 Cup, and source of fiber)

4. Grape Nuts

GRAPE-NUTS:

Ingredients: WHOLE GRAIN WHEAT FLOUR, WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, SALT, DRIED YEAST, SOY LECITHIN. VITAMINS AND MINERALS: REDUCED IRON, NIACINAMIDE, ZINC OXIDE (SOURCE OF ZINC), VITAMIN B6, VITAMIN A PALMITATE, RIBOFLAVIN (VITAMIN B2), THIAMIN MONONITRATE (VITAMIN B1), FOLIC ACID, VITAMIN B12, VITAMIN D.

Its devoid of any "added in" sugars, and from what I have read on Lecithin, this is used in many bread products for various reasons, and isnt a bad ingredient.

5. Shredded Wheat and Shredded Wheat and Bran: (NOT SUGAR TOPPED)

POST SHREDDED WHEAT ORIGINAL SPOON SIZE

Ingredients: WHOLE GRAIN WHEAT

TO PRESERVE THE NATURAL WHEAT FLAVOR, BHT IS ADDED TO THE PACKAGING MATERIAL--If you dont like perservatives, dont select this one
=========================================================

Post Shredded Wheat and Bran

Ingredients: WHOLE GRAIN WHEAT AND WHEAT BRAN.

TO PRESERVE THE NATURAL WHEAT FLAVOR, BHT IS ADDED TO THE PACKAGING MATERIAL. If you dont like perservatives, dont select this one

Both are devoid of any "added in" sugars.


Alpen No Sugar Added Cereal

Serving size: 2/3 cup servings per container:7

calories:200
total fat:3g
sodium:30mg
potassium: 250mg
total carbohydrate:40g
sugars:7g (mostly from raisins)
protein:7g

Ingredients: rolled oats, whole wheat, raisins, pearled barley, roasted hazelnuts, skim milk powder, whey powder, sliced almonds, malt extract. 14 ounce box

Alpen No Sugar Added Cereal

=========================================================

Education is KEY to your success. Don't forget it.

Chillen
 
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