Mixed results.... advice?

[thecarguy]

I am a 26 year old guy and I've been trying to get into HIIT to burn some excess fat in addition to trying to bulk up a bit.

When I started, I got the pinch test and was found to be at 25% bodyfat (weighing in ~199lbs). I'm in my 7th week of my routine, and I'm seeing some good/odd results. I have dropped to 189lbs (shaving 10lbs is a good thing), and I definitely feel significantly better. I have noticed that it takes more of an intense workout to get me heartrate to the same level (i.e. I'm getting in shape). However, I got pinched again and I'm still at 25% bodyfat?!?

I am definitely seeing positive differences. I have shaved 1" off of my gut and 1/2" off of my legs, and I can now comfortably fit in pants that I haven't worn for a couple years. I can also see the lifting adding a little tone and bulk to my frame... so I'm confused as to why I'm still at the same 25% bodyfat via the pinch test.

What I'm doing is: 4 times a week after work, I do:
-5 min warmup
-2 to 3 min at 190bpm (treadmill, elliptical or stairclimber)
-2 min dropping down to 155-165bpm
(repeading these 2 on/2 off or 3on/2off for 25 min)
-5 min cooldown

Then I'll lift for ~1 hour, high weight low reps.

Are my intervals too long? I'm not going 100% "all-out" during my intense interval, but I definitely get up to 185-195bpm. Are my rest intervals too long? I don't feel like I'm burning muscle instead of fat, and I know I've lost 10lbs and I fit into clothes better... not sure why I'm still 25% BF? Any advice?

 

[Dry]

Your max heart rate should be about 191-192 BPM. It sounds like you would be going "All Out" if you are doing 190 for 3 minutes.

 

[thecarguy]

Your max heart rate should be about 191-192 BPM. It sounds like you would be going "All Out" if you are doing 190 for 3 minutes.

Indeed, that's what I thought from all the reasearching I've been doing online. I can definitely feel it and I'm glad when the 2/3 minutes are up (especially near the end of the session), however I could definitely push harder for a shorter period of time.... the heartrate is already pretty high though... perhaps my max heart rate is higher than average?

 

[inform team]

I found that more than just focusing on one type of excersice doing a series session emplying the interval techniques delivered the best results. keep your HIIT workout around 45min any more than that and you are wasting your time...As my friend and trainer says, more than 45min training sess means you are socializing not training.

 

[Wrangell]

What I'm doing is: 4 times a week after work, I do:
-5 min warmup
-2 to 3 min at 190bpm (treadmill, elliptical or stairclimber)
-2 min dropping down to 155-165bpm
(repeading these 2 on/2 off or 3on/2off for 25 min)
-5 min cooldown

Then I'll lift for ~1 hour, high weight low reps.

Aren't you a bit ' wasted ' by doing 30+ minutes of HIIT first -i.e before doing 1 hour of weights ?

Are my intervals too long? I'm not going 100% "all-out" during my intense interval, but I definitely get up to 185-195bpm. Are my rest intervals too long?

There is no hard and fast rule when it comes to the length of your work interval.

That said, you most often see ( at least for fat loss ) people advocating going " all out ..." flat out " ..." as hard as you can " for the work interval. And obviously, you can go much harder for 30 - seconds to 1 minute than you can for 3 minutes.

Your protocol seem to be 1:1 ...or 1:.7. I coach hockey and we use intervals a lot in dry land training. Our protocol is somewhere around 1 minute hard, 2 minutes easy....a 1:2 protocol. And we never track bpm during our work interval - because " flat out " is " flat out "...you you give it 110% during work intervals - that's it ...nothing less will do. So bpm becomes a moot point.

Though we don't track bpm too much on the rest intervals, we also tend to take it easier on the rest interval than you seem to be doing...and would probably be closer to somewhere around 135 bpm or so and the end of a rest interval if I had to guess.

For what it's worth, a very reputable trainer named Alwyn Cosgrove has a 16 week HIIT fat loss protocol in which he advocates 1 minute hard / 2 minutes easy........again, a 1:2 protocol.

I don't feel like I'm burning muscle instead of fat, and I know I've lost 10lbs and I fit into clothes better... not sure why I'm still 25% BF? Any advice?

Possibly muscle gain ?

 

[thecarguy]

Aren't you a bit ' wasted ' by doing 30+ minutes of HIIT first -i.e before doing 1 hour of weights ?

Actually, its not bad. I can hold 2-3 minutes at 190bpm without much trouble for that whole session. The stair climber is definitely much more difficult than the treadmill or the elliptical. However, I'm feeling 'ready to go' after that.

Last night, I tried HIIT with 60-seconds of "all-out" without paying as much attention to the heart rate monitor (at least during the all-out part). I was on the treadmill, and it took 9mph goind "all-out" at first to feel like 60 seconds was the limit, and then by the end of the 25 min HIIT portion it was down to 7.5mph going "all-out". I waited until my heartrate dropped to 155-165 before going "all-out" again (around 3.5mph) and it took about 1.5 to 2 minutes at that speed to drop down to that rate. Man, that was definitely a lot more difficult to do than what I was doing previously! I was spent after that, I tried to lift and just couldn't get it done.

So, I'm thinking I'll try that out for a couple weeks and see how it does. 1 minute "all-out" and 2 minutes "rest" for 5 min warmup, 25 min HIIT, 5 min cooldown. Is it negative if I don't rest all the way down to 125-135? When I cheked my heartrate after the "all-out" last night, I was curising at 200-205bpm.

Possibly muscle gain ?

See, that the strange part. I'm sure that I have gained at least a little bit muscle, and I'm overall down 10lbs, so shouldn't that reflect with a lower BF %? I am wondering if its just a repeatability issue with the pinch test....?

 

[g8r80]

so shouldn't that reflect with a lower BF %? I am wondering if its just a repeatability issue with the pinch test....?

There you go! The pinch test is a very inaccurate and imprecise way to estimate body fat. Calipers or a tape measure are more accurate. I don't like the bioimpedance testers and they cost more anyways.

 

[thecarguy]

Hm... the caliper looks quite similar to the pinch-tool they use, from reading that site, is the caliper better because it can take into account the pressure being applied to the skin??

I'm thinking about ordering the "FATTRACK GOLD DIGITAL BODY FAT CALIPER $29.95" from that site... is it a reputable place to order from?

Thanks!

 

[Wrangell]

Actually, its not bad. I can hold 2-3 minutes at 190bpm without much trouble for that whole session. The stair climber is definitely much more difficult than the treadmill or the elliptical. However, I'm feeling 'ready to go' after that.

Actually, I was more interested in the fact that you do your HIIT before weight training.

Most of what I've read suggests that if you're going to do HIIT and weights in the same session, that it might be better to do HIIT after weights rather than before.

In fact, everyone I've ever known who does both, does usually does HIIT last. I suppose it depends on what your greater priority might be between the 2 in deciding which of the 2 to do first.

Last night, I tried HIIT with 60-seconds of "all-out" without paying as much attention to the heart rate monitor (at least during the all-out part). I was on the treadmill, and it took 9mph goind "all-out" at first to feel like 60 seconds was the limit, and then by the end of the 25 min HIIT portion it was down to 7.5mph going "all-out".

Well done !

I waited until my heartrate dropped to 155-165 before going "all-out" again (around 3.5mph) and it took about 1.5 to 2 minutes at that speed to drop down to that rate. Man, that was definitely a lot more difficult to do than what I was doing previously! I was spent after that, I tried to lift and just couldn't get it done.

Which is why I asked you about doing HIIT first.

You may want to try a few sessions of HIIT after you do your weights and see how that turns out for you.

So, I'm thinking I'll try that out for a couple weeks and see how it does. 1 minute "all-out" and 2 minutes "rest" for 5 min warmup, 25 min HIIT, 5 min cooldown. Is it negative if I don't rest all the way down to 125-135?

Good question...I don't know to be honest.....but if I had to venture a guess, I doubt it.

I'm not an expert on HIIT studies, but I don't recall seeing a lot of discussion of what the optimal lower threshold for a rest interval should be. I seem to recall ( and I'm only going on memory here ) that some studies had subjects go down to 60% or 65 % of their MHR before starting their work interval again - where 60%/65% MHR is the lower end of the aerobic training zone.

So, for your age at 26, 65% MHR would be at about 125-130 bpm....quite a bit lower than your 155-165 bpm you recover at now.

Again, you'd have to check with an exercise physiologist, but I don't think you're losing a lot of any training effect if you wait a bit longer till you hit 65% MHR. You did say you were " by the end of the 25 min HIIT portion it was down to 7.5mph going "all-out" " , so if you recover to 65% MHR you might have a lot more gas in tank so you could sustain each work interval at 9 mph start to finish ( instead of dropping to 7.5mph ).

When I cheked my heartrate after the "all-out" last night, I was curising at 200-205bpm.

Very good.

Again, the rule I always follow when it comes to the work interval is to simply go " all out " for that 1 minute. And by " all out ", I mean ( at least for me ) you should feel like you're hanging on for dear life by the 50 second second mark and that you honestly think you may physically collapse before you hit the 60 second mark...it's that intense.

Now that is just me and my personal approach to HIIT - I'm not saying all HIIT should be done that way. You can easily do work intervals at 80% - 90% of " all out " if you want.

But, it looks like you're doing great job. Keep it up !

See, that the strange part. I'm sure that I have gained at least a little bit muscle, and I'm overall down 10lbs, so shouldn't that reflect with a lower BF %? I am wondering if its just a repeatability issue with the pinch test....?

Who is doing the pinch est ...a trainer ?

 

[thecarguy]

Actually, I was more interested in the fact that you do your HIIT before weight training.

Most of what I've read suggests that if you're going to do HIIT and weights in the same session, that it might be better to do HIIT after weights rather than before.

In fact, everyone I've ever known who does both, does usually does HIIT last. I suppose it depends on what your greater priority might be between the 2 in deciding which of the 2 to do first.

Well, I was wondering about that too. I have been doing the cardio first because I was initially under the impression that its good to get the
heart rate up and going before the lifting to "extend" the fat-burning into the workout. However, it has become more difficult after HIIT to lift now that I'm going "all-out" for 1 minute instead of 185-190 for 2-3 minutes. I suppose its worth a shot lifting first? Should I change my stretching? I.E., I've been stretching at the end of the lifting (which ahs been after the HIIT)... should I still wait to stretch until after both lifting and HIIT?

Who is doing the pinch est ...a trainer ?

Well, I work out at 24 hour fitness, and I was doing one of those free fitness eval's where they measure you and try to sell you training. The lady seems really nice, although I've been told by multiple people to watch out because that could be a sales tactic. I''m hoping it is just be inconsistencies in the pinching and not an indication of anything else.

 

[thecarguy]

Well, I tried lifting first last night before the HIIT. Man, maybe I was just having a bad day at the gym or something, but the HIIT was rediculously difficult. I mean, that was the first HIIT workout I have ever done that made me seriously wish I was not working out haha! I hope it was just a bad gym day

Regarding the priority comment, which way (HIIT and then lift versus lift then HIIT) puts the priority on weight loss?

 

[thecarguy]

Well, I tried lifting first last night before the HIIT. Man, maybe I was just having a bad day at the gym or something, but the HIIT was rediculously difficult. I mean, that was the first HIIT workout I have ever done that made me seriously wish I was not working out haha! I hope it was just a bad gym day

Regarding the priority comment, which way (HIIT and then lift versus lift then HIIT) puts the priority on weight loss?

This new 1-minute 195-205bpm, 1-minute recovery is really tough. I can't lift at all after that, and I have trouble going through it if I lift before.

I want to both bulk up and drop fat, but at this point, my top priority is to drop fat first, then bulk. Considering weight loss is my top priority, do you think it would be better to continue with this and basically drop lifting? Or go back to what I was doing (2 or 3-min 185-190bpm, 2-min recovery). Perhaps what I was doing with less recovery (i.e. 2-min 190bpm, then 1 min recovery)?

 

[Wrangell]

This new 1-minute 195-205bpm, 1-minute recovery is really tough. I can't lift at all after that, and I have trouble going through it if I lift before.

1 minute may not be nearly enough time to recover.

Why don't you use the 1 minute hard, 2/3 minutes easy protocol instead of this 1 minute hard, 1 minute easy protocol you're doing now ?

And as I said earlier, Alwyn Cosgrove has a 16 week HIIT fat loss protocol in which he advocates 1 minute hard / 2 minutes easy........again, a 1:2 protocol.

So, perhaps do 1 minute hard / 2 minutes easy for a few weeks and see how that goes.

I want to both bulk up and drop fat, but at this point, my top priority is to drop fat first, then bulk. Considering weight loss is my top priority, do you think it would be better to continue with this and basically drop lifting?

No need to IMO.

Just do your weight training session and then do your HIIT after that.

Or go back to what I was doing (2 or 3-min 185-190bpm, 2-min recovery). Perhaps what I was doing with less recovery (i.e. 2-min 190bpm, then 1 min recovery)?

Try 1 minute hard at 185-190bpm++++++ and 2 minutes easy down to about 130 bpm or so.

 

[thecarguy]

Update: I'm in the middle of my 14th week of working out, and I've definitely plateaued. In my 11th week, I scaled 179lbs (totalling an overall loss of 20lbs). I am feeling and looking better, and I'm fitting clothes I haven't been into in years.

I averaged over 1.5lbs of weight loss a week through the first 11 weeks, and I haven't changed again in the last 3 weeks, although visibly I definitely have probably another 10lbs of unnecessary bodyfat to lose. Up until last week, I was doing 2-minutes on (185-190 bpm), 1 minute off, followed by light lifting.

I switched my HIIT routine around again last week to a 1:1 with a more intense on-period. I have definitely noticed that I am working harder to get my heartrate up, and I feel like I'm working out way more intense at the high heartrates. For example, I could hit 195bpm 8 weeks ago with ease and hold it for 2 minutes. Now, if I get to 190 by the end of my 1-minute-on period, I'm really workin, and it hurts! For example, on the treadmill I'll do intervals of 1 minute at 9.5-10mph and 1 minute of 4-5mph for rest, and I'll only get up into the mid 180's bpm. By the end of that 25-minute interval session, I'll be hitting low 190's bpm at the end of the on-period, and man I'm spent.

My theory is, I'm getting in shape, so it now I can do a more intensive workout and have a subsequently lower heartrate associated with it. My resting heartrate has dropped from 75-80 to 55-60 (between now and when I started working out). Do I still need to target the same max heart-rates in my HIIT training? Its a lot harder to hit and hold 190-195bpm now than when I first started, and doing that now is really really taxing... Now, I don't think I could just over 190 for over 2 minutes like I used to. Should I still be targeting that high of a heartrate by the end of the high-intensity part of an interval? Is that why I've plateaued in my weight loss? I really want to burn these last ~10lbs so I can shift my focus to the resistance training and start to bulk up!

Thanks everyone for your advice, its been great so far.

 

[buzz]

from lyle macdonalds blog




That is to say that 30 minutes of intervals may burn roughly 300 calories. But so does 30 minutes of moderate intensity cardio (for trained folks). And the intervals are a hell of a lot tougher.

How does that make sense?

The reason of course is that the interval workout is alternating between very high caloric expenditures and very low expenditures such that the average expenditure still ends up coming out about the same. That is, say I do 1 minute intervals with 1 minute rest, alternating between 15 cal/min during the hard bit and 5 cal/min during the recovery. That’s an average of 10 cal/min. I can achieve that same 10 cal/min consistently with moderate intensity cardio. The second workout will be far easier to complete.

So if there’s a huge benefit to intervals, one place it might come is from the EPOC (note: there are other potential benefits of intervals that I’ll be addressing in future blog posts).

So I’m going to be focusing ONLY on EPOC here. Again, I’m going to assume a 7% EPOC for steady state cardio and a 14% EPOC for intervals and put those into some real world perspective.

Say I do 20 minutes of intervals and burn 200 calories. I get a 14% EPOC which is 28 whole calories. Total calorie burn = 228 calories.

Let’s say I do 20 minutes of steady state cardio and burn the same 200 calories. 7% EPOC which is 14 calories = 214 calories.

So, for an equivalent duration workout, the interval workout comes out a whopping 14 calories ahead due to the impact of EPOC. That will net me an extra pound of fat loss every 250 days (3500 calories / 14 calories per day = 250 days). Hooray. Clearly, for any equivalent length workout the interval training will always come out slightly ahead.

Except that you wouldn’t expect someone to do longer and and longer and longer interval workouts; the whole point of intervals (or one point) is that they are more time efficient, that you get all you need in somewhere between 4 and 20-30 minutes (depending on which expert you’re listening to and what they’re selling).

So it’s more useful to compare that 20 minute interval workout to longer steady state workouts which is what most would do in the real world.

Here are calcuations for different length steady state workouts based on an average burn of 10 cal/min and a 7% EPOC.

30 minutes = 300 calories + 7% EPOC = 21 calories = 321 calories.

40 minutes = 400 calories + 7% EPOC = 28 calories = 428 calories.

50 minutes = 500 calories + 7% EPOC = 35 calories = 535 calories.

60 minutes = 600 calories + 7% EPOC = 42 calories = 642 calories.

Now lemme be generous and assume I’m doing 30 minutes of intervals with a 14% EPOC

30 minute interval session = 300 calories + 14% EPOC = 42 calories = 342 calories.

While this is certainly a few more (21) calories than the 30 minute steady state session, it pales in comparison to the longer sessions. Sixty minutes of steady state cardio burns 642 calories, compared to 342 from the interval training. Looking purely at energy balance (and, again, there are other issues to consider) and fat loss, which will get me lean faster?

 

[fit4life1976]

try separating your cardio from your weight training. Your HIIT training takes a lot out of you and you can't do your weight training program, and if you do your workout first, you are so pumped up that u struggle with your HIIT. Rest for a day, eat well, and separate them for a week, do your cardio one day, do your weight training the following day. You will c dramatic changes, i can guarantee you that. Go for cardio day, weight training day, cardio day, recovery day, weight training day, cardio day, weight training day, recovery day and carry on from there. This way you will b able to push both your cardio and your weight training to new heights. Don't think about it, just give it a go and c what happens.

 

[thecarguy]

try separating your cardio from your weight training. Your HIIT training takes a lot out of you and you can't do your weight training program, and if you do your workout first, you are so pumped up that u struggle with your HIIT. Rest for a day, eat well, and separate them for a week, do your cardio one day, do your weight training the following day. You will c dramatic changes, i can guarantee you that. Go for cardio day, weight training day, cardio day, recovery day, weight training day, cardio day, weight training day, recovery day and carry on from there. This way you will b able to push both your cardio and your weight training to new heights. Don't think about it, just give it a go and c what happens.

buzz: not sure what you're getting at regarding my updated progress, I am definitely familair with the basic concept of how HIIT is supposed to work, I'm just looking for feedback on how to breach this plateau I've hit.

fit4life1976: The problem is that I can only commit to 4 days a week of working out. Do you think I should cut my HIIT to basically 2 days a week instead of 4? I just don't want to re-gain the fat I've lost!

 

[fit4life1976]

which days of the week are the 4 days? Are they specific?

 

[thecarguy]

I have committed to monday, tuesday, thursday and friday. I basically work 2 jobs and just don't have time for anything else.

 

[fit4life1976]

Concentrate on your weight training on those days and go for fartlek training on wednesdays and saturdays, not in the gym, on the road (or off the road which is better for your legs). I do a lot of my cardio this way, 3 times a week (one of them is my 5km race on saturdays so i count it as a very fast session). I start with 5 min slow jogging, and the i gradually increase and keep my HR between 175-185 bpm for 20 min, then 10 min slow jogging at 150 bpm, then 10 min 175-185 again, and 10 min back to slow jogging again before i stop and stretch (i always stretch at the end, not at the beginning). It's very demanding, i can assure you! Leave Sunday for rest and church