Stop doing sit-ups and crunches!!!!!!!!!!

D

davidche

0
It has been long believed that the primary function of the rectus abdominus (pictured) is to produce spinal flexion. All you have to do is have a look the insertion and origin to see the logic in this; but is it logical?

From a standing position (the way our bodies were designed) if you were to flex forward how much recruitment is required from them rectus abdominus? Not much; gravity does most of the work.

I would like to challenge your thought process for a moment; first look at the primary function of the core (that is the abdominal section of the core) ; is it to create movement or prevent movement? Most text books would have you believe that it is to create movement but the fact of the matter is that the function of the core is to prevent movement occurring;stabilizing the lumbar spine.

Now getting back to the rectus abdominus; I see the primary function of the rectus abdominus being eccentric deceleration of the trunk into extension, thus preventing the spine from going into extension and causing potential injury to the lumbar spine.

If you look at the anatomy of the rectus abdominus (RA) you will see the RA is crossed by three fibrous bands which are named the tendinous inscriptions; these aid in the eccentric bracing or;breaking; external when forces are applied.


If you dont understand the above, the long and short of it is that:
The purpose of the rectus abdominis is to prevent movement not create it. Situps train against this function.:)
 
I fully understand the function of certain torso exercises, and I also understand the extreme importance of certain exercises that seem not to get mentioned in the same breath in the topic we are speaking, and can be more effective; Full Squats and Deadlifts.


I have done halfup situps (30 degrees) with weight progression for "Months" (can strap 100 lbs, on my chest, in a declining position, for REPS), I love the feeling it gives to my torso. This does NOT involve the hip flexors as much.

I have NO BACK PAIN, and I am 46 years old. I am NOT saying this is what brought my abs: NO.......DIET, genetics, and over all weight training has, with it being a small percentage in the overall equation.

Properly done Crunches have their function dependent on the situation and goal of the individual person and if diet and other parts of the training are correct.

Both the Half up situp (30 degrees) and crunches, have performed a "function" in my routine, though crunches have become nearly obsolete (I have out grown their functional purpose--at least with me, and have went on to other "things")
 
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I agree with Chillen 100%. Squats, deadlifts and variations on them (good mornings, SLDL, RDL, etc.) are the best all round "core" development exercises when done with enough weight to properly stimulate the stabalizing muscles. I also do weighted situps and weighted hanging leg raises, usually immediately after my heavy squats or deadlifts.

No movement can ever truly isolate a single muscle and the hormonal stimuilation provided by intense exercise spreads to surrounding muscles and throughout the body as well. To say that the only useful exercise for a muscle is one that exactly mimics that muscles primary function is a little short sighted.

For example, if a person asked you how to improve his batting strength for baseball what would you recommend? Swinging a weighted bat or swinging handle attached to a pulley, sometimes called wood choppers? These are movements that mimic the swing of a baseball bat. I would argue that a good all round exercise routine of compound movements with an emphasis on lower body (this is where the real power comes from, and movements that mimic the bat swing have almost no direct effect on the lower body) and grip and forearm exercises (this is where the power of the rest of the body gets transferred to the bat) would be much more effective in both the short and long term for improving batting power.
 
Chillen, when you say you have "outgrown" crunches, do you mean they are no longer necessary due to your age or is it because you too fit to need them?
 
My age has never limited me in anything. I have out grown crunches traditional and on a stability ball (Im not going to do 100+, this is ridiculous). I have done many different variaties of crunches too numerous to mention and many different ways (longer holds, more wgt, and on, and on). Without wgt on half-ups, I can do over 500 (I checked one time) and this number doesnt mean a thing--at least to me.
 
davidche said:
It has been long believed that the primary function of the rectus abdominus (pictured) is to produce spinal flexion. All you have to do is have a look the insertion and origin to see the logic in this; but is it logical?

From a standing position (the way our bodies were designed) if you were to flex forward how much recruitment is required from them rectus abdominus? Not much; gravity does most of the work.

I would like to challenge your thought process for a moment; first look at the primary function of the core (that is the abdominal section of the core) ; is it to create movement or prevent movement? Most text books would have you believe that it is to create movement but the fact of the matter is that the function of the core is to prevent movement occurring;stabilizing the lumbar spine.

Now getting back to the rectus abdominus; I see the primary function of the rectus abdominus being eccentric deceleration of the trunk into extension, thus preventing the spine from going into extension and causing potential injury to the lumbar spine.

If you look at the anatomy of the rectus abdominus (RA) you will see the RA is crossed by three fibrous bands which are named the tendinous inscriptions; these aid in the eccentric bracing or;breaking; external when forces are applied.


If you dont understand the above, the long and short of it is that:
The purpose of the rectus abdominis is to prevent movement not create it. Situps train against this function.:)
Click to expand...

O.K...sit-ups aren't optimal and crunches aren't optimal in your view.

So, which exercise DO you suggest someone should do to optimize muscle stimulation in the rectus abdominus ?
 
to the OP: That's true. However, it hasn't long been believed. I read about this ages ago. But there are alot of people who still think the rectus is "made" to do situps with :p
Another of it's primary functions is to prevent rotation. Do stuff like renegade rows and you will really feel this.
 
One just needs to select some exercises and..........JUST DO IT!

And see what works for them.

Its fine to get educated on the muscle functions of the body with certain exercises, just dont get overly caught up in it....you can litterally get driven to the nut farm on opinions and opinions on those opinions on how the muscle reacts to certain exercises.........just pick one AND GO FOR IT!


See what it does FOR YOU........bottom line.

Have you personally done half-up sit ups or crunches for any length of period? Have you done dead lifts or Squats for any significant length? Bent over rows? Rowing exercises? To see what works for you.....or are you basing this off of what you read?

A properly completed FULL squat you can FEEL the torso providing stability (at least with me especially on the push up).

Deads are the same way, with the exception on the pull UP (at least with me)



Good luck to you, Brotha!



Chillen
 
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Hey, brotha:

Just kick in a routine and see what works for you......and adjust the exercises based off FEEDBACK.........of YOUR body.......bottom line....and ROCK WITH IT! Experiment is KEY........
 
I agree with your philosophy Chillen. Just try a bunch of stuff and see what works best for you. Everyone is an individual, so we all respond to different types of exercisees.
 
Hi Cameron McPherson from IdeaWired.... New to the forum and just checking everyone out. I may also be looking for qualified trainers who can give tips/training philosophies via webinar or phone. I will certainly pay for such work. If you can point me the direction where I might find such individuals, let me know.

Thanks,

Cameron
 
I agree with your philosophy too Chillen. I wasn't trying to be flip with age comment. I really wanted to know. But your philosophy makes sense coz all of us are different. I've seen guys work out for hours with crunches and get nowhere and I've seen others just spend a few minutes a day and keep it tight. It all depends on who you are.
 
KickNit said:
I agree with your philosophy too Chillen. I wasn't trying to be flip with age comment. I really wanted to know. But your philosophy makes sense coz all of us are different. I've seen guys work out for hours with crunches and get nowhere and I've seen others just spend a few minutes a day and keep it tight. It all depends on who you are.
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I didnt take it in a negative manner; Its all good.

While various exercises have their place in working the torso (i.e. Dead Lifts, Squats, crunches, half-ups, and others), none will get rid of the fat on top by doing them alone: The deficit diet and the almighty and all powerfull, all knowing, all deciding, all super natural-----CALORIE---does this job.

This is why I RARELY get into debates, because the bottom line is really the calorie, with an exception combination of deficit diet and some nutrient (manipulations) when fat begins to get low or other variants.......but as one can see......the mighty calorie still comes along with the ride.


For normal healthy persons, all the need is the fundelmental basics of diet and training to get the job done (not confusion).

Best regards,



Chillen
 
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First I want to build on the basic requirements to build muscle and lose fat.

Generally, the body likes things just the way they are. Your body does not want to gain or lose weight and there are certain biological mechanisms for maintaining this steady state. At any given point, your body will be in either of two states: an anabolic (breakdown) state or a catabolic (buildup) state.


1. When you gain weight, you will gain muscle and fat: Anabolic (Surplus Diet)

2. When you lose weight, you will lose muscle and fat: Catabolic (Deficit Diet)


As you can clearly see, the deficit diet and the surplus diet are complete opposites.

Think of the deficit diet (to lose tissue) as the body literally feeding on itself because it is being deprived of available calories (and sometimes nutrients) and must look to itself as the available sorce of fuel (breaking tissue down, converting nutrients, etc), and when it does this, it will most certainly yell at you very loudly that it doesnt like eating itself, for example: hunger pains, loss of energy at given times, and mental stimulations that effect you, to name only a few)


The surplus diet is different. And, would argue that eating in excess is more compfortable for the body--and this is important to remember. In this situation the body on average is getting enough calories and nutrients, and the body will build upon itself, and if too much is given in calories and nutrients, it will "happily" store it as fat.

When one first begins to weight train (and either never weight trained before or had a long period off from weight training), and lets say they are overweight as well, and wants to begin a deficit diet and weight training program, things are slightly different.

First, the body has already adapted to its "current" environment (it is accustomed to getting alot of calories, etc) and (has adapted to the level of strength "needed" in accordence to what the individual had been doing).

When the individal "flips the switch" to a deficit diet and also begins training, BOTH of these are stimulants that the body ISNT used to, and will likewise, react VERY strongly--at first. Why? Because it is an intense "shock" from the norm it was getting, and the body will be FORCED to adapt to its "different" environment. And, likewise one CAN build muscle and lose fat at the same time in this example scenario.

However, as time passes, and the body adapts to the weight training and deficit diet stimulus, things begin to change. First it rises to the level necessary to meet the challege of the weight training environment, and though it may or may not be at the same time as the aforementioned adaption, the body also adjusts to the deficit diet introduced. Therefore, weight loss AND weight training muscle gains can come to a complete STOP.

And this is a critical position for the individual-----either change or remain "reletively" the same. If the persons adjusts the deficit diet (but still in deficit), and weight trains........things are different now. It is possible to gain some strength, but muscle growth is "severely" hampered because of the laws of energy balance (the body simply doesnt have enough biological energy to cell-divide and likewise provide tissue growth), but will (with everything considered equal) continue to lose tissue: mainly because it has adapted but more importantly because of the fundelmental laws.

In short, I am saying it is possible to grow muscle and fat at the same time (even past new to weight training gains), but it is one of the most difficult things to do---in an already difficult choice set.

I suggest to either decide to cut (deficit to lose tissue) or bulk (tissue gain).

This is not to mention that there arent diets you cant try to see how it works for you ( I have tried the zig-zag diet in the past, for example).

But I do suggest to do one or the other




Best wishes



Chillen

(EDIT: I hope this helps you. If you have any questions feel free to ask, I am here to help as much as possible. Dont be ashamed in asking questions------------>this is what it is all about)

and,


one more


thing




ROCK ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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One more thing!

Keep ROCKEN IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you going to be training at a gym or at home: Basically, what sort of equipment do you have available to you?



Keep the fricken CHIN UP!
 
Chillen said:
In short, I am saying it is possible to grow muscle and fat at the same time (even past new to weight training gains), but it is one of the most difficult things to do---in an already difficult choice set.

I suggest to either decide to cut (deficit to lose tissue) or bulk (tissue gain).
Click to expand...

Chillen, is there an age at which is becomes more important to focus on one or the other for the average person? I don't mean someone who has trained a lot, but someone who hasn't trained at all or hasn't trained much. Say, the person who might be susceptible to fad diets and takes up walking every five years. The average guy.
 
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