i reallly need cutting advice

[Woodt]

georgen, I understand where your coming from with the 20x body weight to calories per day, for maint. However, if he is gaining on 400 cals lower, then presumably he would probably have to drop at least 200cals per day to lose weight with what he is doing at the moment. With no cardio. Maybe more, just use 200 as a basis.

Adding the extra 400 cals means that to get to that 200 cal lower mark, he will have to burn 600. Are you saying that he would have to do this everyday? How much weight per week would he be losing doing that? The 20x bw, must depend on the person? I know if I was eating that much, and I'm just around 6ft, and 155lbs, I would be gaining weight like crazy, even with the extensive cardio I do.

It just doesn't add up to me.

Also, georgen, I'm curious, if you run flat out, completely push yourself to fatigue, for say 2 miles, what is that burning off? Because you've recommended to proteinboy to do lighter cardio, just wondering how it works.

 

[Proteinboy]

georgen didnt say that a young active strength trainee needs roughly 20x bodyweight calories to maintain. it is in NROL, a trusted book.
it must depend on the trainee obviously. nothing is set in stone. i am also curious though because those numbers seem high.
edit: perhaps it is because a young person needs more calories to maintain healthy growth, development ect ect and this amount of calories is crucial

 

[(Silent)]

Also, georgen, I'm curious, if you run flat out, completely push yourself to fatigue, for say 2 miles, what is that burning off? Because you've recommended to proteinboy to do lighter cardio, just wondering how it works.

Calories...

He is recommending SScardio because its far less intensive on the body. Meaning less bodily repair needed. Which is what i was doing by suggesting that rep range. He however, Was NOT suggesting slower cardio because it burns more fat then carbs (or vice versa). While it may be true that you burn a "slightly" higher % of fat calories from lower intensity aerobic activities. More importantly in half the time at a higher intensity you can burn far More overall calories from a higher intensity activity. Again, a Higher intensity aerobic workout will continue to burn calories through out the day(negating and surpassing slow cardios Slightly higher fat burning %)

 

[goergen1]

Also, georgen, I'm curious, if you run flat out, completely push yourself to fatigue, for say 2 miles, what is that burning off? Because you've recommended to proteinboy to do lighter cardio, just wondering how it works.

When you train at a higher intensity you are anaerobic. Meaning that you are not utilizing oxygen. You need oxygen to utilize fat as a fuel source.

Lighter cardio will burn a higher % of fat. (Though the total calories is less than a higher intensity workout) Lighter cardio will aid recovery from resistance training workouts (a benefit that far outweighs the extra calorie burn from HIIT). Allowing you to weight train at a higher intensity.

Again, a Higher intensity aerobic workout will continue to burn calories through out the day(negating and surpassing slow cardios Slightly higher fat burning %)

While what Silent is saying is true. You continue to burn calories throughout the day after resistance training workouts as well. The increase in the need for recovery time makes HIIT a waste because you are not able to weight train at as high of an intensity because of it. When the goal is muscular size, weight training is more important than intense cardio. Especially if your nutrition is good.

If your long term goal is to gain muscular size, never, EVER, put cardio training over resistance training. You are better to do lighter cardio, or less cardio, and use your nutrition to manipulate BF.

 

[(Silent)]

When you train at a higher intensity you are anaerobic. Meaning that you are not utilizing oxygen. You need oxygen to utilize fat as a fuel source.
[/B].

I'm sure you know this, but the way you worded i have to make sure. Running for 2 miles even flat out would not be Anaerobic. After about the first 600meters it would be Aerobic. Its just not humanly possible to keep up a sprint for two miles.

 

[goergen1]

This is getting a bit off of the topic of the thread, but-

I'm sure you know this, but the way you worded i have to make sure. Running for 2 miles even flat out would not be Anaerobic. After about the first 600meters it would be Aerobic. Its just not humanly possible to keep up a sprint for two miles.

Yes, You can be anaerobic for 2 miles. When people are running and they "hit the wall" that wall is running low on blood sugar because they train in an anaerobic state.

Anaerobic does not mean sprint. It means that you are training above your anaerobic threshold (AT), or the heart rate at which your body switches from (primarily) aerobic to (primarily) anaerobic metabolism.

I have been fortunate enough to have extensive experience doing gas exchange tests, to see where peoples AT really is. I have tested people who have an AT of 135 bpm. Yet they are able to run for miles (sometimes 5 or more) at a heart rate of 160. This means that the way these people have trained has increased their lactic acid threshold to the point where they can be in an anaerobic zone for extended periods of time.

At the same time I have tested people who have an AT of 175 + bpm. That means that they are aerobic up to 174 bpm. Once they cross their threshold the "hit the wall" very quickly since they do not have a very high lactic acid threshold. On the flip side, this group could run faster, for longer periods of time than the group who trained above their AT.

My point is that people have different abilities, and anaerobic metabolism will occur at different heart rates in different people. Saying that you are aerobic after 600 meters is crazy. There is no standard point where anaerobic switches to aerobic and vise-versa. It will be different for most people based upon their training history.

 

[(Silent)]

This is getting a bit off of the topic of the thread, but-



Yes, You can be anaerobic for 2 miles. When people are running and they "hit the wall" that wall is running low on blood sugar because they train in an anaerobic state.

Anaerobic does not mean sprint. It means that you are training above your anaerobic threshold (AT), or the heart rate at which your body switches from (primarily) aerobic to (primarily) anaerobic metabolism.

I have been fortunate enough to have extensive experience doing gas exchange tests, to see where peoples AT really is. I have tested people who have an AT of 135 bpm. Yet they are able to run for miles (sometimes 5 or more) at a heart rate of 160. This means that the way these people have trained has increased their lactic acid threshold to the point where they can be in an anaerobic zone for extended periods of time.

At the same time I have tested people who have an AT of 175 + bpm. That means that they are aerobic up to 174 bpm. Once they cross their threshold the "hit the wall" very quickly since they do not have a very high lactic acid threshold. On the flip side, this group could run faster, for longer periods of time than the group who trained above their AT.

My point is that people have different abilities, and anaerobic metabolism will occur at different heart rates in different people. Saying that you are aerobic after 600 meters is crazy. There is no standard point where anaerobic switches to aerobic and vise-versa. It will be different for most people based upon their training history.

Lol No no, you misunderstood me. When woodt said "run flat out" I was saying you can not sprint 2 (what i call run flat out) for two miles
Aswell i was referring to the "average" person. I Would say 600meters is a decent rule of thumb.

 

[Wrangell]

lol...woodt is actually right. although it IS my fault that i havent updated my signature in a month or so. im 170lbs NOW and i think my bf is still around 15 give or take a bit. i can still see 2 abs but the top 2 and bottom 2 are covered.

thanks so much for the replies so far. well, taking off 1 lb a week sounds very fulfilling, as long as it is fat. thats a LOT of fat for just one week though...1 whole lb! in 10 weeks i will be very happy if i can get my bf down to 10%.

Well, that was just an example on my part to illustrate a point. If it seems a bit to aggressive, pulling back to trying to lose 0.5 lbs of fat a week is a good idea - ( if not better ). If you are indifferent as to time frames to get to 10% for example, slow & steady fat loss is always better than rapid fat loss in my books. And since you only have 5% +/-body fat to lose - assuming you eat properly - concerns about loss of muscle mass needn't be in the forefront of your mind at that slower rate IMO

my big bulk i did for like 5 months brought me from 150 to 170 and i gained a ton of strength and muscle. i currently am eating around 2800 cals everyday with around 200+ g protein daily, and i dont really keep track of my carbs/fats but i do get adequate amounts/day. i will start tracking.

Good idea...it's carbs that fuel your workouts / muscles ...so it's best not to skimp on carbs. Again, if you want cut back on some calories, take a look at what your protein intake is. At your weight you likely only need somewhere between 136 grams - 170 grams of protein a day...so you can use that as a rough guide to see if you have room to cut back in that area ..ditto for fat grams - check those out too.

i plan on making HIIT as hard as i can for 10-15 mins. sprinting as hard as possible followed by fast walking cooldown, repeat. stregth training will be moderate, but this is the REAL AREA where i need advice!!! i have to know HOW to work out to keep this muscle!!!
i have read that 40% pro, 40%carbs, 20% fat is a good cutting macro. any ideas?

Seems you're a big fan of NROL. Good man !

If so, why not follow the HIIT protocol of Alywn Cosgrove that Lou cites in the book - the program Alywns calls " AFTERBURN " ( it's on page page 87 - Chapter 7 ) ..or check out Alywn's website.. ( BTW - I'm assuming you have a good aerobic base on which to undertake HIIT - is that right ? )

Alywn's HIIT protocols start at 19 minutes and extend up to 28 minutes. He uses a " lactate threshold " approach of going hard for a 1 minute work interval and then doing a 2 minute recovery interval - a 1:2 ratio. But, this isn't a hard & fast rule. You can adjust this according to either your needs or fitness level within a 1:2 or 1:3 ratio etc. etc. ( i.e 20 seconds hard, 60 seconds recovery...1 minute hard, 3 minutes recovery etc. etc. ) ...it's up to you...you can mix up HIT protocols a number of ways.

On the " 40% pro, 40% carbs, 20% fat " - again this is just one ratio you could use. Before locking into any ratio, I'd try and get a handle on where your protein grams are first and go from there to build up your carb and fat intake on that basis.

 

[Proteinboy]

yes, but i now understand and realize that HIIT sessions really do stunt my recovery from a workout. whenever i do HIIT, i am wasted and the next day i workout, i am less rested. i think georgen really brings up a good point about having enough time to recover.

thanks, mrs M . im feeling the fat creeping up on me though :/ i dont want to let it get too high. maybe just lower 3% or just change my lifestyle a bit.

so where does HIIT fit into any muscle boy's routine?

and why would i want to shave my protien intake?? i thought that if anything, i would shave off some carb cals and only eat the best carbs around: beans, fruits, veggies. i am always getting 1g pro / lb of bw

you guys are a plethora of advice!!! i love it!

 

[(Silent)]

so where does HIIT fit into any muscle boy's routine?
!

IMO They don't "muscle boy".

 

[Proteinboy]

you mean i can forget about HIIT completely if all i want is to get strong and muscular? i guess they will only help increase speed...

 

[(Silent)]

you mean i can forget about HIIT completely if all i want is to get strong and muscular? i guess they will only help increase speed...

Were not saying that doing them will totally prevent muscle mass gain. Though it could slow the process. I would be cautious bout doing them during a cut especially when retaining LBM as the main goal.

 

[Proteinboy]

great advice. thanks everyone. keep it coming if you feel you have something good.

 

[goergen1]

you mean i can forget about HIIT completely if all i want is to get strong and muscular? i guess they will only help increase speed...

Yea, I would not bother with it. There are many other methods, more suited to muscle gain, that should be used.

It depends upon the type of speed.

If You are looking for sprinting speed, like in football, baseball, or short track events. The answer is, no, it does not increase speed. (unless you are particularly slow)

If you are looking for more speed endurance, like in soccer, cross country, some of your longer track events, it may help increase speed. (really more the ability to maintain speed across time ((again, unless you are particularly slow))

A lot of that will depend upon how it is applied.

For strong and muscular the biggest players are the quality of your weight training program, and the quality of your nutrition.

and why would i want to shave my protien intake?? i thought that if anything, i would shave off some carb cals and only eat the best carbs around: beans, fruits, veggies. i am always getting 1g pro / lb of bw

Don't shave your protein intake. It is better to err on the high side of protein than carbs for sure. Again you will learn over time what works best for you.

There is actually a lot of reasearch out there (as well as practical application) of having a higher fat intake. Closer to 30-35% of your diet.

That being said, I know a lot of guys who keep their fats higher. You really need to be tight about what your sources of fats are in order for that to work. Do some real research before trying.

 

[SkianS40]

I skimmed most of this thread and thought i would chime in. My first "cut", which was basically just getting back into shape, was done with little to no cardio until the last few weeks of it. I bulked for about 6 months and recently started cutting again, and it has been MUCH more difficult this time around.

The main thing i have found to be helpful for me is constant variety in my workout... for example, for a few weeks i will do push/pull FBW's, and vary the rep ranges from 5x4 to 3x12. Then the next few weeks i will do horizontal/vertical FBW's and again vary the rep ranges.

I've also been upping my cardio which again has I have been constantly changing. 2-3 days a week I will either do 10-15 minutes of HIIT (hill sprints at full sprint), or go for a 30-40 minute low intensity jog.

Really, IMO... your diet the only thing that SHOULDN'T vary when your cutting. try to take in most of your carbs pre and post workout, and up your protein intake to even more than when you were bulking.

 

[Wrangell]

yes, but i now understand and realize that HIIT sessions really do stunt my recovery from a workout. whenever i do HIIT, i am wasted and the next day i workout, i am less rested. i think georgen really brings up a good point about having enough time to recover.

Well, all I can say it that if you look at Alywn's 16 week HIIT protocol, he recommends doing HIIT after weight training sessions and during the last 7 weeks of his protocol he suggests doing HIIT 4 X a week and then 5X a week. So, i can only assume he feels that with proper nutrition, rest and not overtraining on the weight side of the equation, enough recovery exists to sustain HIIT at 5X a week. Now, I'm not suggesting YOU do it 5X a week mind you, but doing some sort of brief HIIT sessions 1-2X a week could easily be a reasonable part of any serious attempt to ' cut ' fat IMO.

As for being wasted AFTER HIIT, hard to say why you should be any more wasted than what might be normally expected. I assume you are taking the appropriate carb dominant post workout shake / meal after your session dueing the " glycogen window ". I'm also assuming you are trying to eat close to 6 meals a day and also are having a pre-workouts snack an hour prior to your workout. If you're not fuelling yourself properly ( as per above ) it may be one of the contributing factors toward feeling more wasted than you think you should feel.

so where does HIIT fit into any muscle boy's routine?

Do it after your weight session - as Alywn suggests in NROL - or on days between weight sessions.

and why would i want to shave my protien intake??

Well, you would only shave your protein grams back IF it turns out you are scarfing down too much protein now.

As I said before, there is no evidence in the literature that bodybuilders ( who are not on steroids ) require any more than 1.0 gram of protein per pound of bodweight to sustain muscle growth. So, the very most you ( as a non bodybuilder ) would need is - at your current weight of 170 lbs. - 170 grams of protein a day.

i thought that if anything, i would shave off some carb cals and only eat the best carbs around: beans, fruits, veggies. i am always getting 1g pro / lb of bw

Why would you want to shave carbs unless you had to ? Like I said before, if you want to create a calorie deficit, you certainly can cut some carb and fat calories back, but before I'd cut carbs, I'd see if my protien grams were too heavy ( i.e well in excess of 170 ) and cut back there first...or no more than 700 calories a day coming from protien in this case. It's carbs that fuel HIIT and weight training - not protein.

On the fat side of things, you want to emphasize " good fats" over " bad fats " and in doing so try to keep your daily fat calories under 30% of ( under 30% being in acordance with the recommendations of the American Heart Association ) of your total daily calories.

 

[Proteinboy]

yes, i have pre w/o meals and post w/o meals but whenever i do hiit, i just push myself really hard and since i havent done it in a long time, i know i will be sore the next day from just 15 mins of high intensity sprinting

 

[Woodt]

Lol No no, you misunderstood me. When woodt said "run flat out" I was saying you can not sprint 2 (what i call run flat out) for two miles
Aswell i was referring to the "average" person. I Would say 600meters is a decent rule of thumb.

Silent, by flat out I meant running at maximun intensity for the 2 miles. This means that my sprint speed would greatly decrease. With the incline on the run, this actually kills me. I can feel the lactic acid halfway through, my chest gets tight, my eyes water, and my legs burn. I've got used to it. So through anaerobic training do you burn off fat?

 

[Woodt]

yes, i have pre w/o meals and post w/o meals but whenever i do hiit, i just push myself really hard and since i havent done it in a long time, i know i will be sore the next day from just 15 mins of high intensity sprinting

You'll get used to it.

 

[(Silent)]

Silent, by flat out I meant running at maximun intensity for the 2 miles. This means that my sprint speed would greatly decrease. With the incline on the run, this actually kills me. I can feel the lactic acid halfway through, my chest gets tight, my eyes water, and my legs burn. I've got used to it. So through anaerobic training do you burn off fat?

Yes, you burn calories more specifically though.

Lol, I was kinda worried that you were gonna say you could sprint for two miles non stop.