A couple questions I haven't found the answers to......

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13moonmama

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I've lost 30 lbs with the weight watcher diet and hula hooping. I want to create muscle confusion. Now, I want to do cardio and strength training with my lower body. I have 15 more lbs to lose. I have 2 questions I haven't been about to find the answers too......

1. Where should my heart rate be at when I strength train? Should I do cardio before or after, or does it matter?

With cardio, the longer you do it, as long as your heart rate isn't too high, the bigger % of fat you burn. Do the same principles apply to strength training and muscle? What are the principles?

2. I've read a lot about using weights when doing squats and lunges, and deadlifts. I can't picture how this is done. Do you hold them in your hands? Attach them to your legs or ankles?? I have 3 lb weighs you hold with your hands and a resistance rubber band.

Thank you!
Kayla
 
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Congrats on the wt loss so far. :)

Now, a couple of things. Lose the 3lb wts, there are very few things you can effectively do with them. There are a few rotator cuff things and the like, but as far as actual wt lifting goes, they aren't of much use.

Don't aim for just one part of the body that you want to strength train, aim for making your whole body more fit. For some illustrations of the exercises you see mentioned on this site, try ExRx Exercise & Muscle Directory

Save the cardio for after you strength train. You need your strength to strength train at an effective intensity. While doing cardio, don't worry about all the "fat burning zone", "cardio zone" and all that. What's more important is that you are getting your heart rate up to a point that you are actually breathing heavier, and breaking a bit of a sweat, but can still talk (not gasping for air for 30 min).
 
another point of view

Hi kayla
just for another point of view...

I think that right now as your goal is weight loss you may benefit more from doing cardio first and finish with resistance training. I agree with deschain regarding the possibilities of loss of strength, but it just means you might not be able to lift as much weight, and right now i think you care more about losing the 15lb than how much weight you can lift.

The benefit of doing resistance training last is that you will continue to burn more calories for longer once you have finished your workout more than if you finished with cardio!! it's due to Excess Post Exercise Oxygen Consumption (EPOC) if anyone wants to know more about the science behind this check out drlenkravitz.com and check his publications!

Regarding the 'zones' i agree completely with deschain don't get wrapped up in it too much, make sure with your resistance training you don't wait too long in between exercises, you should be doing 15 reps for now and resting 30secs ( up to 1 minute ... but only if you feel like you really need it)

keep going you're close now let us know how you do!!
 
I've always been told that doing strength before cardio was the way to go. If I remember correctly, you get the most benefit from strength training the closer to failure you get. Training cardio first reduces that threshhold.

I've heard about EPOC in the context of (high intensity) interval training - does doing strength first somehow affect it?
 
MCFLY said:
Hi kayla
just for another point of view...

I think that right now as your goal is weight loss you may benefit more from doing cardio first and finish with resistance training. I agree with deschain regarding the possibilities of loss of strength, but it just means you might not be able to lift as much weight, and right now i think you care more about losing the 15lb than how much weight you can lift.

The benefit of doing resistance training last is that you will continue to burn more calories for longer once you have finished your workout more than if you finished with cardio!! it's due to Excess Post Exercise Oxygen Consumption (EPOC) if anyone wants to know more about the science behind this check out drlenkravitz.com and check his publications!

Regarding the 'zones' i agree completely with deschain don't get wrapped up in it too much, make sure with your resistance training you don't wait too long in between exercises, you should be doing 15 reps for now and resting 30secs ( up to 1 minute ... but only if you feel like you really need it)

keep going you're close now let us know how you do!!
Click to expand...

Right, she might not be able to lift as much weight. Exactly the point, Less weight means less benefit.
If you know about EPOC then you should know that anaerobic activity increases EPOC more so than aerobic exercise does. Besides its well known EPOC effect is raised in conjunction to the intensity. So if she tires her self on Aerobic prior to the Anaerobic phase its more then likely she will not be able to exert herself as she could had she done Anaerobic exercises first.

It is as well widely know that the body will rid itself of unchallenged LBM. While in a calorie deficient this is even more true. Strength training (Anaerobic) will aid in the prevention of Catabolism of her LBW during her calorie defiant weight loss. As im sure you know, LBM expends more calories then fat does on a daily basis. So doing ones best to prevent the loss of ones LBW is crucial to overall weight loss.

The fat burning zones one should not pay attention to. Trust me (and science) doing 20 minutes high intensity aerobic activity's will be far "better" then 40 minutes slow paced so called "fat burner" zone.

Im also confused as to why your suggesting such a high rep range? There is far more benefit in doing heavier weight,low rep ranges for weight loss then high.
Get some larger weights...Those dinky 5 pound weights are of little use to you.
 
okay,
so at least we agree with the irrelevance of the fat burning zone, high intensity cardo is the way to go and also the fact that the small weights are of no use!!

my reasoning behind the high reps (which i did say was 'just for now 'ie. to begin with) is from what kayla has told us i assumed (this is possibly my mistake) that she has little or no experience with RT... if in fact that is the case i still believe just adding RT with correct weight 65-67%1RM higher reps will result in 'muscle confusion' as she puts it... again just for now... i understand that higher intensity results in greater benefits and i completetely agree with what you are saying, but i have a hard time in this instance promoting heavy weight (75%1RM or more) so quickly!

in regards to the order of exercise in a perfect world she could do cardio on one day and RT on another to maximize results, right? what do you think?

i understand everything you have said about EPOC and it's relationship with workout intensity and i completely agree with all the comments of making the most of exercise intensity and the results it has ..... again depending on the client and the case..... in my experience i have seen some great results for weightloss in women doing cardio first.
 
MCFLY said:
okay,
so at least we agree with the irrelevance of the fat burning zone, high intensity cardo is the way to go and also the fact that the small weights are of no use!!

my reasoning behind the high reps (which i did say was 'just for now 'ie. to begin with) is from what kayla has told us i assumed (this is possibly my mistake) that she has little or no experience with RT... if in fact that is the case i still believe just adding RT with correct weight 65-67%1RM higher reps will result in 'muscle confusion' as she puts it... again just for now... i understand that higher intensity results in greater benefits and i completetely agree with what you are saying, but i have a hard time in this instance promoting heavy weight (75%1RM or more) so quickly!

in regards to the order of exercise in a perfect world she could do cardio on one day and RT on another to maximize results, right? what do you think?

i understand everything you have said about EPOC and it's relationship with workout intensity and i completely agree with all the comments of making the most of exercise intensity and the results it has ..... again depending on the client and the case..... in my experience i have seen some great results for weightloss in women doing cardio first.
Click to expand...

Ahh alright, you basically want her to attain proper form through higher rep motions. Practice in other words. I can agree with that. Though i believe after goals and proper form have been set. A change in the rep scheme would likely be best.

About separating weight training and cardio. I believe that depends on the goals of the person. But, for the average person i believe its fine.

True it is really about finding whats best for the client. Though, you mention you have had good success on cadio before weights. Well i must ask. Do you think you could not had the same success had the weights gone first?
I think it truly depends on the program and or intensity being done. On whether how much cardio prior to weights will effect a persons ability to lift with full ability.
 
ok so we can agree that this is a good start.

i see that your exercise science knowledge is vast..it's very commendable! but i feel the need to stress the importance of practical application.
We have the scientific knowledge, resources, and tools to be able to help people reach desired goals, but if you don't focus on the human element... it is going to be useless in exercise prescription.

you have recognised my reasoning behind the high reps, practise etc but it seems to be a surprise to you that this is the reason....
which is strange to me as the original thread topic was posted by a client, who wants help and direction!!! help being the focus, therefore you have to evaluate the clients needs, what are they looking for? experience ... and how you can help?
you can only really answer this by working with people, trial and error, recieving feedback, and understanding how to apply the science in everyday life.

all i'm saying is some things cannot be learned from a book.....
for example, you asked if i had done weights first followed by cardio, would i have seen the same results with my clients.... the answer .... maybe... who knows.....

but what i do know is that the majority of my female clients who had a weightloss goal have felt that they 'enjoy' cardio first as they feel that they could 'work harder' doing the cardio as their legs were 'fresh'!!!
this allows them to maximize the intensity of the cardio workout which was in practice, the case (we did try both options!). as we have said high intensity is the way to go..... and if i had to compromise i would prefer my female clients with a weightloss goal, to have a higher intensity doing the cardio work out than the RT training.

Once you have progressed the RT program to a higher intensity 70%1rm or more there is substantial evidence that there is a greater EPOC response from RT (whether alone or after cardio) than aerobic exercise... which when accumulated over time may support long term weightloss.
The results were good, the science is supported, but moe importantly weightloss was achieved and they enjoyed the workout..........
 
:p But to answer your question about HOW to use the weights, simply hold them in your hand. Have weights attatched to your legs during a squat would do absolutely nothing. Or you could have that resistance band under your feet, hands at your shoulders, and no slack as you are at the lower part of the squat, then as you stand up it would tighten and therefore increase resistance. If it still is not hard enough at the top of the squat you simply continue to press your hands up.

If you are doing high reps in the lunges, the lighter weigts MAY make a difference, but we are talking using them as part of your cardio program, not really resistance training. Have you ever been to an aerobics class etc.? Have you seen it done?

One of my favorite exercises is backward lunges with dumbells, especially for beginners (as long as you already know how to properly do a backward lunge!).
Start with feet together, elbows just slightly back and arms parallel to the floor. Simply lunge backward, and as long as you are comfortable with the movement, bring your arms straight out in front of you during the lunge, to slightly above your forhead. As you bring your feet back together, pull your arms in, making sure you are pulling your arms tight and shoulder blades together, back to the starting position.

Remember though, this is cardio with just a little weights mixed in. If you are new to lifting, you may even build some muscle with it. If you would like to pick up more intense resistence training, pick up some heavier dumbells. (If you can do the above exercise for ten minutes and feel like you can go for another ten, get new ones now please:D !) There are plenty more you can do, like squats with a deltoid press at the top, forward lunges you would just hold them in your hand, mainly so you can be sure your knees are in proper alignment the entire time.

Remeber though, if the reason you want to loose lift is to loose weight, you really want to involve your entire body, not just legs. Yes, they are the largest muscle groups, but if you are getting stronger everywhere, building muscle everywhere, you will get better results (and not get imbalanced!).

good luck, and congratulations on your achievements so far!
 
Good discussion mate! As well you make a Great point about science to application! Rep+! Though I must admit, I highly doubt any of this will help "this person". As looking at the last time she was on it was the day of posting "Last Activity: May. 15/07 09:41 AM ". None the less I enjoyed the Conversation. Good Day,
 
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