Question About weight training aches & pains

[mddolson]

Wondering if anyone can shed some light on next day aches & pains after strength training. I'm working out 5 days/week. Mon Wed & Fri are 45 min - 1 hr circuit training/cardio days. Tues & Thurs are strength. On these days I use heavier (relative to circuit training) weights , typically max out a 8-10 reps to failure, resting 1 minute then another set , repeat for 3 sets, then move on to different muscle group.

Both types of work-out leave me spent physically, winded, sweating. Obviously I'm more winded on cardio days, and more muscle fatigue on alt nights. Over the past month I've noticed , the day after cardio work outs I feel great, refreshed etc.
The morning after strength training though I feel like I've been beaten and thrown into a corner. I'm sore & ache, just about every muscle group I worked, hurts.
I presume this is "micro tears" in the muscles as part of the break down/rebuild process of developing muscle mass.
Is this something I just have to get used to, or does it deminish over time?
I've also heard there are products (ie:health food store) other than just diet that help in the repair process. Do these work? or are they just marketing hype?

Mike D

 

[Steve]

Wondering if anyone can shed some light on next day aches & pains after strength training. I'm working out 5 days/week. Mon Wed & Fri are 45 min - 1 hr circuit training/cardio days. Tues & Thurs are strength. On these days I use heavier (relative to circuit training) weights , typically max out a 8-10 reps to failure, resting 1 minute then another set , repeat for 3 sets, then move on to different muscle group.

Why are you training to failure?

What are your stats?

What are your goals?

What do your strength training days look like exactly?

The morning after strength training though I feel like I've been beaten and thrown into a corner. I'm sore & ache, just about every muscle group I worked, hurts.

see: DOMS

Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness

And it's not to be something you strive to feel after each workout. If you feel it continually while dieting, you're probably doing too much.

I presume this is "micro tears" in the muscles as part of the break down/rebuild process of developing muscle mass.

That's old school thought, yes.

Check out this fantastic article written by a buddy of mine:

 

[mddolson]

weight training aches & pains

Why are you training to failure?
I wish to increase my strength & muscle mass & ultimately burn more fat.

What are your stats? : I'm 54 years old male. Height 5 ft 11 in. Weight 243 lbs. I had knee replacement surgery 6 years ago. ( running, squats, jumping are not allowed) I have an office job at a computer. I have been working out since March this year, I have been circuit training at home on a cable machine 35-40 minutes 5 days per week. As of July I have dropped 25 lbs and 3 inches off my waist (now 39"). I hit the plateau mid July, and am still at 243 lbs.

What are your goals? I wish to be in better shape (cardio), reduce my weight to 225 lbs, feel better, look better overall.

What do your strength training days look like exactly?
Stretch Warm-up
Shoulder shrugs, 200 lb 3 sets x 8-10 reps
Calf raises : 400 lb : my weight + 150 ,3 sets x 8-10 reps
Biceps Curls: 100 lb 3 sets 8-10 reps
Wrist roller (8 lbs ,5' cord on dowel) to failure (5 reps)
Bench Press 200 lbs, 3 sets x 10 reps
Incline sit-ups 3 sets x 20 reps
Leg extensions: 225 lbs, 3 sets 10 reps
Leg raises 3 sets x 15 reps
L&R Oblique twists, 75 lbs 3 sets x 10 reps
Hip Extension L&R 75 lbs 3 sets x 10 reps
Seated Rowing 200 lbs 3 sets 8-10 reps
Cool down

Thanyou for the link on DOMS

Mike D

 

[Steve]

Why are you training to failure?
I wish to increase my strength & muscle mass & ultimately burn more fat.

Training to failure is the last thing you want to be chasing then.

As of July I have dropped 25 lbs and 3 inches off my waist (now 39").

Congrats.

I hit the plateau mid July, and am still at 243 lbs.

Training to failure is not what's causing your plateau, I'm sure. But it should still be high on the priority list of things to change.

What do your strength training days look like exactly?
Stretch Warm-up
Shoulder shrugs, 200 lb 3 sets x 8-10 reps
Calf raises : 400 lb : my weight + 150 ,3 sets x 8-10 reps
Biceps Curls: 100 lb 3 sets 8-10 reps
Wrist roller (8 lbs ,5' cord on dowel) to failure (5 reps)
Bench Press 200 lbs, 3 sets x 10 reps
Incline sit-ups 3 sets x 20 reps
Leg extensions: 225 lbs, 3 sets 10 reps
Leg raises 3 sets x 15 reps
L&R Oblique twists, 75 lbs 3 sets x 10 reps
Hip Extension L&R 75 lbs 3 sets x 10 reps
Seated Rowing 200 lbs 3 sets 8-10 reps
Cool down[/quote]

Holy hell that's a lot of volume. Way too much considering you're dieting. Beating your body into submission rarely works, FYI.

 

[Trevor M.]

Holy hell that's a lot of volume. Way too much considering you're dieting. Beating your body into submission rarely works, FYI.

Haha - Great way to word it, Steve.

And I fully agree with Steve's advise.

 

[mddolson]

weight training aches & pains

A little clarification on my part may be required, sorry if I mislead you.

1) I did not change my routine to encorperate strength training until after I was at the plateau. about end of July.

2) I am not dieting. I eat sensibly, 3 meals/day & a snack if I feel like it.
I target 2000 - 2250 calories
ie: breafast : begal & light cream cheese, or cerial w/1% milk, coffee with1% milk, 4 oz juice
lunch: lean hamburger on bun with dill pickle, mustard, ketchup 500 ml water, a piece of fruit. dinner: lean meat of day(pork, beef, fish, or chicken), steamed vegetable, salad. 2 or 3 times a week a bun & becel are included. Desert: 2 or 3 times a week : a scoop of light ice cream, or sherbret, or light jello.

I don't know if this is signifciant : but I take Simvastatin 20 mg once a day for hi-collesterol, also glucosamine suphate 1000 mg twice/day for arthritus, & ASA for arthritus 650 mg, 4 times/day. (after reading the DOMS link, I wonder if the NSAID could be a conern?)

Perhapps I used the wrong term "failure". I do reps until I cannot complete a normal rep in good form. Perhapps I should have said partial failure. If I were to really push myself, I could do another rep, but this would likely resullt in injury. Something I do not need at my age.

Would you please recommend a sensible volume for my reps & sets?

Thankyou for the assistance & taking the time to answer my post.

Mike D

 

[Steve]

I'm actually heading out the door. Please bump this so it's in my 'new posts' once I return.,

 

[Alex26]

What Could It Be?

Well, the reason for your pain could be a number of things. I weight train 3 times a week and never feel muscle aches. They'll feel fatigued and sore for a little bit, but nothing unusual.

Are you doing at least a 5 minute warm up before you weight train? A warm up should be stuff like jumping jacks, running in place, etc.

Are you drinking enough water? Make sure you drink water before and after a workout, and if you can, during the workout.

Are you stretching afterward? This is the biggest problem with one of my friends. He always complains that he is sore after a workout, and I asked if he stretches and he said "hell no." Stretch afterward, it's important.

During your exercises make sure your not holding your breath. Take deep breaths and control your breathing.

Lastly, make sure your doing your exercises with good form. Don't push yourself to do more reps if you have sloppy form, the exercises isn't as effective and you can hurt yourself.

Good Luck!

 

[Trevor M.]

During your exercises make sure your not holding your breath.

I wouldn't actually agree to this fully. There are movements where your breath should be held, at the right times. In most cases these moments, or portions of the lift, happen automatically. However, many people seem to think they need to be huffing and puffing through out every second of the lift. This 'forced' respiration will lower concentration and often hurt form.

 

[Steve]

A little clarification on my part may be required, sorry if I mislead you.

1) I did not change my routine to encorperate strength training until after I was at the plateau. about end of July.

And where did you get the idea that you need to be training to failure?

First I suppose I should ask are you truly training to failure? Failure means you fail at the last rep of the set.

2) I am not dieting. I eat sensibly, 3 meals/day & a snack if I feel like it.
I target 2000 - 2250 calories

Yea, so you're dieting, lol.

You realize that the word dieting has a few definitions. In the context here, I simply mean you're eating in a way that promotes weight loss.

ie: breafast : begal & light cream cheese, or cerial w/1% milk, coffee with1% milk, 4 oz juice
lunch: lean hamburger on bun with dill pickle, mustard, ketchup 500 ml water, a piece of fruit. dinner: lean meat of day(pork, beef, fish, or chicken), steamed vegetable, salad. 2 or 3 times a week a bun & becel are included. Desert: 2 or 3 times a week : a scoop of light ice cream, or sherbret, or light jello.

How are you tracking your calories?

Seems light in protein, good fats and veggies.

I don't know if this is signifciant : but I take Simvastatin 20 mg once a day for hi-collesterol, also glucosamine suphate 1000 mg twice/day for arthritus, & ASA for arthritus 650 mg, 4 times/day. (after reading the DOMS link, I wonder if the NSAID could be a conern?)

Possibly, hard to say.

Perhapps I used the wrong term "failure". I do reps until I cannot complete a normal rep in good form. Perhapps I should have said partial failure. If I were to really push myself, I could do another rep, but this would likely resullt in injury. Something I do not need at my age.

I'd leave one full, good rep in the 'tank' considering you are dieting. The goal while dieting is to preserve muscle while facing an energetic deficit. It is not to pummel your body into submission.

Would you please recommend a sensible volume for my reps & sets?

I've got a handful of templates I use, based on 3-4 sessions a week, but the strength sessions are always oriented around limited volume and economy of training.

Metabolic type training is thrown in as assistance work after the muscle-preserving workouts are handled. Metabolic training should not be a priority in place of muscle retention; diet is going to be 90% of your weight loss results. Metabolic training is icing on the cake, and it will under no circumstances replace the core strength sessions.

A full-body workout might be

Squat/Front squat - 3-5x3-5 + 1x8-12
Bench/Incline bench/OHP - 3-5x3-5 + 1x8-12
Chinup/Barbell row - 3-5x3-5 + 1x8-12

Assistance exercises can be thrown in as follow-ups in a single session or in separate modules on a different day; this is also where I'd throw in your metabolic work.

Essentially I focus on a few core lifts and develop a full body routine around lifting them with heavy weight 2-4 times per week. By heavy, I mean 15-40 reps per part per session, so potentially anything from 3x5 to 4x10 would be workable.

The other stuff with assistance and metabolic work is just fluff added to the end.

 

[mddolson]

I stretch & row on my machine for 5 minutes before all my workouts, but no jumping jacks or running. (I must avoid impacts due to knee replacement surgery).
I do breath continuously and specifically exhale on every rep, pushing down on the diaphram.
I drink plenty of water before and after the work-outs.
As I stated in my clarification, I don't push to ultimate failure, when I loose form I stop.
I stretch and walk around for 15 minutes coolling down after a work out & before showing
and rehydrating.

Mike D

 

[mddolson]

And where did you get the idea that you need to be training to failure

General reading on internet & book "Progressive Resistance strength training", can't remeber author's name, but he was Canadian weight lifting, team coach in 70's.


How are you tracking your calories?

I use a calorie counting booklet, available at checkout of suppermarket.

Seems light in protein, good fats and veggies.

I usually have a large portion of meat, ie 4-6 oz, not 3

I'd leave one full, good rep in the 'tank' considering you are dieting. The goal while dieting is to preserve muscle while facing an energetic deficit. It is not to pummel your body into submission.

I understand. I'm not trying to beat myself up, I can drop a rep or two if needed. I usually push the reps until I feel the burn, then usually 1 more.
I simply can stop at the burn. However I do have a history of pushing too far. (25 years heavy weight black belt in Judo, which is how I trashed the knee).

A full-body workout might be

Squat/Front squat - 3-5x3-5 + 1x8-12
(I need to find an alternate for this)
Bench/Incline bench/OHP - 3-5x3-5 + 1x8-12
Chinup/Barbell row - 3-5x3-5 + 1x8-12

I just want to clarify your sets & reps notation, so I understand.
Chinup/Barbell row - 3-5x3-5 + 1x8-12
means chinups or barbell row : 3 to 5 sets of 3 to 5 reps, plus 1 set of 8-12 reps. Please confirm is this is correct?

Essentially I focus on a few core lifts and develop a full body routine around lifting them with heavy weight 2-4 times per week. By heavy, I mean 15-40 reps per part per session, so potentially anything from 3x5 to 4x10 would be workable.

At this point I'm trying the keep the heavy wts 2 days/week (Tues &Thurs) and do cardio circuit traing Mon, Wed & Fri.

Thankyou fo the input.

Mike D

 

[Steve]

And where did you get the idea that you need to be training to failure

General reading on internet & book "Progressive Resistance strength training", can't remeber author's name, but he was Canadian weight lifting, team coach in 70's.

That's a really outdated model. Our research on hypertrophy and muscle response to training has come a long way since then.

I use a calorie counting booklet, available at checkout of suppermarket.

Do you weigh your food?

I usually have a large portion of meat, ie 4-6 oz, not 3

Well that doesn't do anything for the lack of good fats and veggies.

But I would suggest getting in around 1 gram per pound of lbm in terms of protein. 4-6 oz of meat isn't going to get you there.

By chance are you familiar with

I understand. I'm not trying to beat myself up, I can drop a rep or two if needed. I usually push the reps until I feel the burn, then usually 1 more.
I simply can stop at the burn. However I do have a history of pushing too far. (25 years heavy weight black belt in Judo, which is how I trashed the knee).

The burn is not an indication of effective training, so I wouldn't worry about that.

Squat/Front squat - 3-5x3-5 + 1x8-12
(I need to find an alternate for this)

Do what you need to do. Ask your doc what he suggests. I don't get into the contraindication territory when it comes to pre-existing conditions or injuries over the web. I just don't know enough about the injury.

I just want to clarify your sets & reps notation, so I understand.
Chinup/Barbell row - 3-5x3-5 + 1x8-12
means chinups or barbell row : 3 to 5 sets of 3 to 5 reps, plus 1 set of 8-12 reps. Please confirm is this is correct?

Correct.

At this point I'm trying the keep the heavy wts 2 days/week (Tues &Thurs) and do cardio circuit traing Mon, Wed & Fri.

That's fine.

The heavy days will be for muscle and strength maintenance. The other days will be for caloric expenditure.

This is essentially what you were doing previously, just far too much. And far too much isolation work. If you want, at the end of your strength days you can throw a couple of sets in for bis and tris, but nothing serious.

 

[mddolson]

Our research on hypertrophy and muscle response to training has come a long way since then.

I have been doing quite a bit of reading on hypertrophy on the internet. Still haven't digested nor understand most of it.

Do you weigh your food?
NO, my social director (wife) is in charge of meals.


Well that doesn't do anything for the lack of good fats and veggies.
Please suggest what to add?

But I would suggest getting in around 1 gram per pound of lbm in terms of protein. 4-6 oz of meat isn't going to get you there.
I also have a meat potion at lunch, either on whole wheat or wrap. Weekends are 2 meal days, big breakfast, eggs, bacon, toast coffee, lunch is usually a piece of fruit & water, dinners: salad, steak, or pork chop, or skinless chicken on BBQ, steamed or fresh cut vegatables, 1/2 baked potato & desert.



By chance are you familiar with FitDay - Free Weight Loss and Diet Journal

NO , I 've had good success with what I ws doing until I hit the plateau, but I will have a look .


This is essentially what you were doing previously, just far too much. And far too much isolation work.
Can you please explain what you mean by too much isolation work?

If you want, at the end of your strength days you can throw a couple of sets in for bis and tris, but nothing serious.
Sorry I don't understand what you mean by bis and tris, please explain?

Thank you again for the assistance.

Mike D

 

[Steve]

Our research on hypertrophy and muscle response to training has come a long way since then.

I have been doing quite a bit of reading on hypertrophy on the internet. Still haven't digested nor understand most of it.

I wouldn't worry about the research for the most part, unless of course, you're interested. Understand the basic principles like specificity, overload, progression, recovery and periodization and how these things apply to the different situations you find yourself in (like dieting for instance) and you're well on your way.

Do you weigh your food?
NO, my social director (wife) is in charge of meals.

Haha, lucky you.

Well that doesn't do anything for the lack of good fats and veggies.
Please suggest what to add?

Veggies is straight forward. Focus on getting a few servings of fibrous veggies each day.

Good fats come by way of things like nuts, fish, fish oils (I suggest you get some), flax, natty peanut butter, avocados, olive oil, etc. Fat contains more calories than protein and carbs so it's important to make sure they fit into your caloric allowance.

But I would suggest getting in around 1 gram per pound of lbm in terms of protein. 4-6 oz of meat isn't going to get you there.

By chance are you familiar with FitDay - Free Weight Loss and Diet Journal

NO , I 've had good success with what I ws doing until I hit the plateau, but I will have a look .

Here's the thing.

"Cleaning up" your diet works up to a point. If it stops working though, it usually requires a change. For most, that change means more specific dietary/caloric control. That's where a food scale and fitday come into account.

For some, that means simply eating less food than they previously were. That's for the lazy or busy type who feel like winging it.

In most cases though, winging it only gets you so far.

I'll add that as you lose weight, your metabolism downregulates. Your caloric needs is closely related to your weight/body size. Lose weight and you now have a lower caloric requirment. Not to mention that our metabolisms tend to slow a bit just from our basic survival mechanisms, but I wouldn't worry about this too much at this point. My point is though, if you've lost some weight yet haven't reduced your intake, this could very easily lead to a plateau. Generally as weight comes down, so should intake to match the reduction in caloric requirements.

Make sense?

Most plateaus, especially in relation to those who aren't tracking their nutrition closely, aren't really plateaus. By that, I mean they aren't your body resisting weight loss. It's more often the case that the individual is actually eating at maintenance opposed to a caloric deficit. Maintenance of energy balance = maintenance of weight.

This is essentially what you were doing previously, just far too much. And far too much isolation work.
Can you please explain what you mean by too much isolation work?

You don't need to be doing a lot of isolation movements; things like curls and tricep extensions, calf raises, etc, etc. There's just not a need while you're dieting. Some is ok. A lot and you're not being economical with your training.

Economy of training is critical when you are dieting.

You want to do just enough of the right things to trigger muscle maintenance but not so much that you're over-stressing the body.

A lot of isolation work is okay when you're eating in a caloric surplus... you can 'afford' the additional stress. When you're dieting though, you have to be selective (picky) with where you spend your 'dollars.' What's going to give you the biggest bang for your buck; compound movements that allow you to use more weight and stress more muscles per movement or isolation movements?

Follow me?

If you want, at the end of your strength days you can throw a couple of sets in for bis and tris, but nothing serious.
Sorry I don't understand what you mean by bis and tris, please explain?

biceps and triceps.

 

[mddolson]

Steve,

Thankyou again for the wealth of information.

re- good fats/veggies: I omitted fish from my meats by accident, we have fish at least once/twice a week, I have some fresh salmon, from lake Ontario, caught last Sunday, for lunch today. Our salad dressings are made with extra virgin olive oil. When I snack it's cut celery and carrot sticks.

"Cleaning up" your diet works up to a point. If it stops working though, it usually requires a change. ....Most plateaus, especially in relation to those who aren't tracking their nutrition closely, aren't really plateaus. By that, I mean they aren't your body resisting weight loss. It's more often the case that the individual is actually eating at maintenance opposed to a caloric deficit. Maintenance of energy balance = maintenance of weight

Yes that pretty much what I figured. My conclusion was that I was at a maintanence level. Not wanting to change my diet again, I decided I needed up my calory deficite by putting on some muscle mass, rather than cutting more calories.


A lot of isolation work is okay when you're eating in a caloric surplus... you can 'afford' the additional stress. When you're dieting though, you have to be selective (picky) with where you spend your 'dollars.' What's going to give you the biggest bang for your buck; compound movements that allow you to use more weight and stress more muscles per movement or isolation movements?

Follow me?

I missed that comment in the last post. I do understand what your saying now.
In summary: do fewer reps, using compound exercises rather than isloation movements.
I'll need to look at how I can best do this.
I was just thinking I could switch the squats/lunges in your suggested list with some heavy seated rowing.

Mike D

 

[Steve]

Steve,

Thankyou again for the wealth of information.

re- good fats/veggies: I omitted fish from my meats by accident, we have fish at least once/twice a week, I have some fresh salmon, from lake Ontario, caught last Sunday, for lunch today. Our salad dressings are made with extra virgin olive oil. When I snack it's cut celery and carrot sticks.

I'd still supplement your diet with some fish oil pills. Do a search on this forum and you should find a good bit of info as to why. They're one of the only supps I recommend. I consider them a food, really.

Yes that pretty much what I figured. My conclusion was that I was at a maintanence level. Not wanting to change my diet again, I decided I needed up my calory deficite by putting on some muscle mass, rather than cutting more calories.

Here's the problem with that reasoning.

I think I remember you are new to weight training. If that's the case, sure, you might add a bit of muscle. But considering you're not eating in a caloric surplus (you're in a rather large deficit actually), the chances of putting on significant muscle enough to impact your metabolic rate is slim to none.

I missed that comment in the last post. I do understand what your saying now.
In summary: do fewer reps, using compound exercises rather than isloation movements.
I'll need to look at how I can best do this.
I was just thinking I could switch the squats/lunges in your suggested list with some heavy seated rowing.

I'd do what you can for legs. If it's machine based, so be it.

 

[mddolson]

I'd still supplement your diet with some fish oil pills.

Will do!

I think I remember you are new to weight training. If that's the case, sure, you might add a bit of muscle. But considering you're not eating in a caloric surplus (you're in a rather large deficit actually), the chances of putting on significant muscle enough to impact your metabolic rate is slim to none.

MMmm, yes new in that I had a 10 year layoff. I retired from Judo about 10 years ago, when the knee got really bad. Prior to that time I never had to watch what I ate, and weight trained specific for Judo. After 10 years sedintary life style, and 30+ pound of weight gain, I decided it was time to get back on the horse again. I am new to weight training to loose weight however. I suspect the inital muscle increase has already taken place. I started circuit training 5 days a week, 1st of March. I went 6 weeks with zero change in my weight. This is not new for me. It was the same when I was younger (25-30). During the 1st, 6 weeks I felt stronger my, my stamina increased and my workout loads increased about 30 % on average, but no measurable wight loss. I presumed my cardio fitness was also improving to a level where I could maintain sufficient intensity , to create a caloric deficit, as the weight started to come off in April about 1 to 2 lbs every week, until July.


I'd do what you can for legs. If it's machine based, so be it.
The rowing doesn't do a whole lot for the thighs though, so I'm thinking I should keep leg extensions in the mix.

Mike D

 

[Steve]

MMmm, yes new in that I had a 10 year layoff. I retired from Judo about 10 years ago, when the knee got really bad. Prior to that time I never had to watch what I ate, and weight trained specific for Judo. After 10 years sedintary life style, and 30+ pound of weight gain, I decided it was time to get back on the horse again. I am new to weight training to loose weight however.

Yea, so there's a good chance you'll see some muscle gain. But to repeat, it won't be to the extent that you're able to burn a ton of fat without getting this diet under wraps. Maintenance eating is maintenance eating and even under optimal circumstances (calorie surplus) people don't gain enough muscle to make a world of difference in their metabolisms.

 

[mddolson]

Aches & pain after weight training.

Steve,

I took your advise and reduced my reps.
I did 3 sets 7 reps in my work out last night. ( down from 3 set of 10)
As suggested I still has a good rep or two left in me.

To work the legs/back/shoulders (compound) I replaced shoulder shrugs & leg extensions, & calf raises with a modified loaded 1/2 squat-shoulder shrug combo.
I must avoid deep knee bends, but I can do 1/2 squats without endangering my prosthetics. I loaded my machine with 150 lbs, adjusted a set of handles to I don't over bend my knees, then do a upper half squat lift with shoulder shrug at the top end.

Today I feel great. Muscles feel worked but no aches & pains when I awoke today.

I'll get the rest of my session tweaked to encorperate compound exercises, but I think I'm on the right track now thanks.

Fish oil capsules are on the grocery list this week as well.

Many thanks

Mike D