LaMa

Llama

Well-known member
I personally hate the claim that folks who get surgeries and injections are predominantly doing it "for themselves", because if normal human features weren't seen as issues, no one would try to fix what isn't broken.
I do think cosmetic procedures come in two categories: the ones we do to feel "prettier" and the ones we do to feel more like ourselves. But I don't think it'll ever be possible to fully untangle the two so all we can do is let adults do what they want with/to their bodies and try to make the process as safe as possible.
People are very strange trying to look like their butts are fatter than they actually are.
:D You must've come of age in the late 20th century! Going from the toast rack 80s ideal and the heroine chick of the 90 to the current wisdom tooth look has been quite the ride but the vodeo above shows there's really nothing new under the sun.

Woke up late again and did not feel motivated to go to the gym at all but wanted to play on my phone instead. I did get up, turn on the oven, put together another lentil pot pie, and shoved it into the hot oven. Now waiting for it to be far enough done that it'll finish cooking on residual heat after I turn off the oven so I can go running while it cool dows to a safe temperature. Yay forum time!
 

Llama

Well-known member
I ran. Good girl LaMa. Also: forgot to mention I broke 80 kg this morning. Brain was foggy so at first I thought I'd gained 1.5 kg and was disheartened but then I realized 79.5 isn't over 80 kg so I'm actually down!
 

Floater

Well-known member
I do think cosmetic procedures come in two categories: the ones we do to feel "prettier" and the ones we do to feel more like ourselves. But I don't think it'll ever be possible to fully untangle the two so all we can do is let adults do what they want with/to their bodies and try to make the process as safe as possible.
I agree with this and I meant no disrespect. Personally, if there existed some kind of a Jedi mind trick that would make people perceive and treat me as a man, I would opt for that instead of HRT and surgery. Probably. But as it's just a fantasy, it's hard to tell for sure. Maybe I would still want to fix this shell?

BTW I love expression of "80s toast rack" ass. My butt is the size of a barn door, but I have plenty of muscle in there and deep hip dips, so maybe I could cathegorize mine as a hotel breakfast toast rack? :D It's definitely interesting to see how it will look once I go on HRT...! Ugh, growing up in the 90's and early 00's "heroin chic" period was pure hell for a short and stocky person like me. I don't think any girl in my class made it out without developing some sort of disordered eating. I remember being on liquid diets as early as 14, and some girls would sustain themselves on frozen peas and corn because it was slow to eat and "made you feel fuller". What a nightmare.

Congrats on the run! And the lentil pot pie sounds good!
 

alligatorob

Respected Member
I ran. Good girl LaMa.
I agree! Good girl!
79.5 isn't over 80 kg so I'm actually down!
Another good girl for you!
I do think cosmetic procedures come in two categories: the ones we do to feel "prettier" and the ones we do to feel more like ourselves. But I don't think it'll ever be possible to fully untangle the two so all we can do is let adults do what they want with/to their bodies and try to make the process as safe as possible.
An interesting observation. I have to be honest, when I first lost weight I did think about surgery to reduce my skin sag, but then I had a couple of real surgeries... Now I need a lot better reason than aesthetics to go under the knife. I don't like looking at my skin, but it causes me no real problems.
BTW I love expression of "80s toast rack" ass. My butt is the size of a barn door, but I have plenty of muscle in there and deep hip dips, so maybe I could cathegorize mine as a hotel breakfast toast rack?
Some very interesting analogies here, conjures up some visions. Probably all wrong, but I can't help it, LOL!
 

liza

Well-known member
Nice work on getting out on the run LaMa. And the lentil pot pie sounds so yummy. I wonder if i could get motivated to try making some--could make a lentil stew today and then use that as filling for some tomorrow using my gluten-free flour for a crust. That would be a nice treat!

the ones we do to feel "prettier" and the ones we do to feel more like ourselves. But I don't think it'll ever be possible to fully untangle the two
So true. Even minor alterations like clothing choices, hair removal etc fall into that category I think.
Sometimes I wish I could have a stronger, more well-defined sense of an outer self. As it is, I just seem to go with whatever will blend in most easiest into the background.
 

Llama

Well-known member
Personally, if there existed some kind of a Jedi mind trick that would make people perceive and treat me as a man, I would opt for that instead of HRT and surgery.
That´s an interesting thought experiment. I need to think about that. Wasn´t there a movie about a girl who saw herself as skinny while everyone else saw her as obese? I almost think I´d prefer that - at least if I also got the health benefits.
Ugh, growing up in the 90's and early 00's "heroin chic" period was pure hell for a short and stocky person like me.
I can imagine. I´m tallish and stocky, which was marginally better. We´re clearly the same age: so many girls in my school had undereating issues! Can only think of a single kid in our 1,000 kid school who would have been classified as obese and he disappeared after the first day.
An interesting observation. I have to be honest, when I first lost weight I did think about surgery to reduce my skin sag, but then I had a couple of real surgeries... Now I need a lot better reason than aesthetics to go under the knife. I don't like looking at my skin, but it causes me no real problems.
Having worked with a lot of people after different surgeries: I get it.
Sometimes I wish I could have a stronger, more well-defined sense of an outer self. As it is, I just seem to go with whatever will blend in most easiest into the background.
I like the way you put that. I think mine is stronger when I feel better but when I´m struggling (mentally or physically) I don´t really want to exist - let alone be noticed by other people.

Points today: 7. Yay me! Msh 6 (one of my rib joints is getting on my nerves), gih 7, airways 6.5, mood 7. Had a longer shift today and made it through surprisingly well.
 

Floater

Well-known member
That´s an interesting thought experiment. I need to think about that. Wasn´t there a movie about a girl who saw herself as skinny while everyone else saw her as obese? I almost think I´d prefer that - at least if I also got the health benefits.

I can imagine. I´m tallish and stocky, which was marginally better. We´re clearly the same age: so many girls in my school had undereating issues! Can only think of a single kid in our 1,000 kid school who would have been classified as obese and he disappeared after the first day.
I can only think of a particularly sadistic and humiliating romantic comedy, "Shallow Hal" (2001), with Jack Black and Gwyneth Paltrow. Jack plays a superficial shithead dude who gets "cursed" to only see the inside of people, and falls in love with Gwyn in a fatsuit while seeing her as skinny. Everyone makes fun of the couple, and it's just a gross movie with a lot of fat jokes, like Gwyn flooding a swimming pool when she jumps in, and the guy not understanding how such a small girl can make such a big splash etc. And yeah I was born in 1988, so I can't really remember a time in my youth when being super skinny wasn't the desired body type...

I have to add something to the jedi mind trick thing: most people never think about this, but it's been proven that getting HRT tends to help with mental issues that trans folks suffer from long before any effects are showing. It could be placebo at least in part, but brain scans also show that trans and cis brains are somewhat different and trans brains tend to exhibit similarities to the "opposite" sex. I'm not a huge fan of reducing every mental process into brain imagining, because the technology is not quite there yet, it's like looking at the Milky Way with a pair of bird spotting binoculars, and then huge conclusions are drawn based on pretty foggy data. But what I'm trying to say here, is that it's possible that telling myself that I could just as well survive in this body if it weren't for other people might just be a way to cope with a situation I have had to accept without little hope of improving it. I do remember the feeling of futile rage when I started to hit female puberty, knowing that I have absolutely no way of preventing what is happening to my body. It was a rough experience. So, if I could turn back the clock I would. And HRT and surgery is my next best option.
 

Llama

Well-known member
Thanks Cate! Today's going to be a bit of a grind: I'm on leafblower/treadmill duty and on top of that the computer is acting up.
I can only think of a particularly sadistic and humiliating romantic comedy, "Shallow Hal" (2001), with Jack Black and Gwyneth Paltrow.
That could well be it. I'm not a big cinema-goer so I generally only know the (soundless) trailers half-seen on the screens at the gym.
I'm not a huge fan of reducing every mental process into brain imagining, because the technology is not quite there yet, it's like looking at the Milky Way with a pair of bird spotting binoculars, and then huge conclusions are drawn based on pretty foggy data.
Not to mention that the differences in the scans are gradual and mostly overlapping. Doesn't matter though: people with low testosterone feel better when they supplement. It only makes sense that the same should be true for you regardless of what it does for your looks.
 

alligatorob

Respected Member
Can only think of a single kid in our 1,000 kid school who would have been classified as obese
Same here, unfortunately it was me. Probably not true, but that is how I remember it.

This discussion of body image is interesting. I believe that for most of human existence the ideal woman had wide hips, shows good child bearing ability, and was overweight (by today's standards anyway), shows good access to food and general health. I believe the desirability of skinny is a recent development, driven by Hollywood and the like. Not that women should be obese, I think both women and men should be healthy and at a health weight, but size shouldn't relate to attractiveness.

The ideal woman of 25,000 years ago ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_of_Willendorf ), I do prefer today's hair styles:
Venus_of_Willendorf_-_All_sides.jpg
 
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Floater

Well-known member
@alligatorob yeah, while most women probably never got to the size of the Venus of Willendorf due to food scarcity, a bit of chub was most likely desirable in prehistoric times, as menstruation and pregnancy require it and it increased survivability during times of little or no food.

But of course women didn't just sit around being preggers, new technology has revealed that a big portion of graves with weapons found in them were women's graves; it was just a misconception that weapons or spiritual artefacts were automatically men's stuff. I would imagine that a variety of body types and desires has existed throughout history.

It's true though that weight and shape have been a marker of class: when food was scarce, fatness was desired (in men as well), now that it's abundant, slimness shows that a person has time for exercise and access to a certain diet. It's an interesting topic.
 

Llama

Well-known member
The lady in the picture is Austrian and resided in the NHM for a while. I've read enough old texts to know that slender was often associated with youthfulness and absolutely a desirable trait at least in the past 3000 years. But of course what was considered slim changed over time. Judging by the kind of compliments I get at work from different nationalities taste still depends a lot on culture, Hollywood be damned.

I just learned that garlic supposedly sprang up from the first hoofprint Satan's left hoof left when leaving paradise (while onions came from the first right hoofprint). I'm inclined to hail the old man for that but then a lot of people claim that the snake was Satan and the snake lost its legs due to fruit shenanigans so that would leave it somewhat difficult to leave footprints. It's a conundrum!
 

Floater

Well-known member
I just learned that garlic supposedly sprang up from the first hoofprint Satan's left hoof left when leaving paradise (while onions came from the first right hoofprint). I'm inclined to hail the old man for that but then a lot of people claim that the snake was Satan and the snake lost its legs due to fruit shenanigans so that would leave it somewhat difficult to leave footprints. It's a conundrum!
Vernacular religion is fascinating. I have a soft spot for myths of origins; every single known culture has the tendency to come up with stories about how everyday things came to be. The theologian in me is especially fascinated about all the folksy beliefs surrounding Satan and devils/demons, because they have absolutely nothing to do with the biblical canon, and yet for most people they were much closer to heart than the "high religion". I think it's because people's brains are wired to look for threats and adversaries, and it's some form of consolation when a batch of butter goes bad to blame Satan for it :D :D (And of course, in times when illness and death was everywhere, it must have been a psychological coping mechanism as well.)

It's interesting though - why would people associate Satan with something so beneficial as onions and garlic? Must have been the sulphuric taste/smell? After all, onions were a staple in Europe, and garlic was used widely for it's antibiotic and antifungal properties... Then again, most folksy "magic" wasn't trying to draw power from God, but from the devil, and it was really common for people to dabble in magic. And at least in Finland in pre-Christian times (and existing alongside Christianity), it was widely believed that all power comes from the netherworld where the dead reside, and sky and nature deities are either adversarial towards humans or just indifferent and impossible to reach. It has been documented that as late as between the World Wars, Finnish country bumpkins would make effigies in trees to kill their neighbors or other enemies in secret, while attending Mass on Sundays because it was considered the norm. I've seen a picture of one, it was creepy as fuck; the outlines of a man drawn into the bark of a large pine. I could segue into the tradition of tree worship and how the forest was seen as an abode for powerful and dangerous magic in Finnish folklore, but my brain is too fried from exercise. Hold the thought though, because I love the topic.

I will say this much when it comes to fruit shenanigans: no one knows for sure what or who the snake in Genesis was supposed to be, but I have heard the explanation that it was a remnant of polytheist proto-Judaism and had originally been Lilith, Adam's first spouse, who later fell out of popularity and was retconned into a baddie. Satan rarely makes an appearance in the Bible, but the book of Job (my fave) has him/them as a character who is analogical to how a court person or a lawyer would act, egging God on to make Job's life a living hell in order to prove that humans are not able to face hardships with grace. But he is still clearly on God's side and only really an adversary to Job, and even that indirectly. Job is just a pawn in the game of more powerful beings! And what comes to the idea of Satan having hooves, that's a way to distinct Christianity from Greco-Roman polytheism, especially Pan - a hooved, horned, horny nature god, who was very antithetical to early Christian sensibilities. Because Pan was a very popular image in temples, it was easy to make people shun those old places of worship by association his image with evil.

An interesting snippet of info: proto-Judaism was polytheistic but monolatric (it's only OK to worship one god but others were thought to exist), and God even had a pantheon - a wife included. It is thought that the dogma of the Trinity was considered so central in early Christianity because it was the only sensible way to explain away how people were supposed to be happy with just one God instead of a celestial family unit. The Holy Spirit is often referred to in the Hebrew Bible in feminine pronouns and associations; even in translations you can find things like referring to the Spirit as a mother hen protecting believers with her wings.
 

Llama

Well-known member
Religious traditions ARE fascinating. Often terrifying, but fascinating nonetheless. I find it hilarious that people basically made Adam the first divorce in order to explain the two incompatible creation stories.

6 points today, gih 6, msh 6, airways 7.5, mood 7. Had a client today who kept hinting at having been a professional athlete in his youth (each time adding something like "but that doesn´t matter now") and who talked so much I couldn´t have got a word in edgewise even if I´d wanted to. (I didn´t want to: he was getting on my nerves for several reasons and he wasn´t old or sick enough to soften my heart.) So then out of the blue while he was changing (I don´t need to watch you change dude; close the curtain) he said something like: "So since you didn´t ask about it I just wanted to tell you about my sports career." And went on to ramble about what he did when he was 15. Which was kind of hilarious to me. How sad is your life when as a successful professional (which he is!) you have to try and impress me with the physical prowess of your teen self?
 

Floater

Well-known member
So then out of the blue while he was changing (I don´t need to watch you change dude; close the curtain) he said something like: "So since you didn´t ask about it I just wanted to tell you about my sports career." And went on to ramble about what he did when he was 15.
C R I N G E
I'm sorry you had to deal with such an oaf...
 

Llama

Well-known member
Some sessions definitely seem to go on longer than others 🙈 I do find it amusing when outwardly successful people have such a clear need to impress a middle-aged stranger in a completely glamorless (though fun!) job. They can only be trying to convince themselves, right? For all my faults and weaknesses I sometimes think I'm happier than 80+% of the people I meet.
 

Emilyrose

Well-known member
Sounds like he was trying to impress you for a reason? ;)

I also think we are programmed to like people that are fit and in shape and this has been the way of it since time began. The surplus of food we have now means that staying in shape is incredibly difficult for a huge proportion of us, which leads to disordered eating from an early age and the whole mess that is my life. I think our generation was brainwashed to believe that fit and healthy equals a size 10 or less, which is where I know a lot of my problems have stemmed from, and I was actually a perfectly healthy weight as a size 12-14. Now, of course, I would love to get back to that body.
 

alligatorob

Respected Member
Had a client today who kept hinting at having been a professional athlete in his youth
Sounds like an interesting guy. You might want to know that I was a very accomplished professional athlete in my mind, many different sports. Is that about the same? But I will probably stay behind the curtain...
yeah, while most women probably never got to the size of the Venus of Willendorf due to food scarcity
And even if they very rarely did they didn't generally live long enough for a lot of the obesity related diseases we worry about. I actually doubt any of the women of that age looked like the idol. I think its kind of like some of the pin-up girl things we have today, like the Vargas girls Playboy used to feature. Still I believe it does show some man's fantasy of what the ideal woman of 23,000 BC would have looked like.
Judging by the kind of compliments I get at work from different nationalities taste still depends a lot on culture, Hollywood be damned.
I agree, on Hollywood anyway. And even today with Hollywood people's ideas of what looks good varies a lot. I am sure you look good to lots of folks.
I just learned that garlic supposedly sprang up from the first hoofprint Satan's left hoof left when leaving paradise (while onions came from the first right hoofprint).
So we have some things to thank Satan for! Last week in New Orleans one of the popular tee shirts at the all too many toursit shops said something to the effect of: "God's busy right now, but I can help" Satan in New Orleans.

Floater and LaMa, I enjoy your discussions, wish I had more time to contribute, but its late, off to bed. Thanks, keep on posting!
Religious traditions ARE fascinating. Often terrifying
Only terrifying if you believe them! LOL
 
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